Transportation => Work Vehicles => Topic started by: Glen on November 08, 2010, 17:32:23

Title: Buses
Post by: Glen on November 08, 2010, 17:32:23
A couple of M&D liveried busses I took at Chatham Historic Dockyard on Saturday....

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/5156369248_97ee68b900_z.jpg)

1960 Leyland Atlantean

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5155761563_f1ea3858bc_z.jpg)

Early 70's Leyland Leopard

Glen
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 08, 2010, 21:44:20
Great pictures, and the East Kent livery is one of the best; really classy in my opinion.

Can't beat the Chatham & District Traction Company:

                                                 (http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/petec-photo/img047.jpg)

            (http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/petec-photo/img060.jpg)
Title: Buses
Post by: Megapack162 on November 08, 2010, 23:39:19
A couple of M&D liveried busses I took at Chatham Historic Dockyard on Saturday....

1960 Leyland Atlantean

Maidstone and District were very early customers of the Leyland Atlantean, taking 157 of the original design, many of which provided sterling service for almost 20 years. I remember their twilight from my school years, occasionally everyone had to get off one halfway up Waterworks Hill after the bus stopped at the bottom of the hill and they couldn't get enough speed from a standing start to reach the top.

Sadly none of the 14 semi-lowbridge examples, which were very rare in any case, were saved for preservation, especially in the case of DL43 which was apparently the only Pre-Production semi-lowbridge to be built. The last M&D owned example - originally DL45 - was going to be preserved by a group of drivers but the deal fell through and once Western National, who took a large number of these aged buses in the mid 70s to speed their one man conversions (including DL43), disposed of theirs in 1981/2 the type disappeared.

Only 4 or 5 of the 157 including this one are known to have survived, one of which was exported to Australia, so hopefully DL558 will continue to be looked after by the Historic Dockyard and remain an example of an era when the public relied on public transport to move them around rather than their cars.....

Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 09, 2010, 12:22:14
M&D had a number of Daimler CWs fitted with AEC engines, with the fluted radiator. For a ride in one (not an M&D one, they had different bodies) see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUW6DMTDMJw

Title: Buses
Post by: Bobnich on November 09, 2010, 14:02:19
The Daimler with an AEC engine is the CWA6 built by Daimler during the war.  The first 100 built had Gardner engines and had the model classification CWG5 but when these ran out it was agreed that AEC would build the A173 version of its famous 7.7 litre engine for the CWA6 (The W refers to Wartime). These were excellent engines and these buses, although later re-bodied, stayed in service for years, although initially operators were not keen due to problems with the transmission. The M & D ones I think were re-bodied by Weymann in about 1953/54.  I have a keen interest in London Utility Buses. These AEC engines were also used extensively in M & D's fleet of Bristol buses. Corgi make a model of an M & D Daimler CW with Utility bodywork which looks to be a nice model. It has the registration GKN 269. Hope this of some use(and hopefully correct!)
Title: Buses
Post by: patmore on November 09, 2010, 15:05:00
What happened to the old Dodson that M&D used to run around Hastings?
                                                                                              James
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 09, 2010, 15:16:30
The Daimlers had pre-selector gearboxes, but I didn't know there were problems, apart from the different driving style.
In the Bristols the difference in performance between the AEC and the Gardner engines was noticeable. This extract from 'Chatham and District Traction Company' topic describes the Bristol K5G:
The Bristol K5Gs were powered by a 5-cylinder Gardner engine producing 95 horsepower, equivalent to about 12hp/ton (compared to about 60hp/ton for an average car), so performance was not exactly sparkling.
Governed speed in top gear was 32mph.
Time to accelerate from 0 to 30mph = 5 hours (actually, I made that up :) ).
Chatham Hill was a tedious 2nd gear climb and even parts of Canterbury Street needed 3rd.
The noise and vibration when flat-out were awesome.


In comparison, the M&Ds K6As were much smoother and more 'agile'.

The Daimlers seem to have been re-bodied in the same way as C&Ds Bristols.
Here is a Bristol with its original utility body:
                                 (http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/petec-photo/img056.jpg)

Here is a re-bodied one of the same series:
                                 (http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/petec-photo/img057.jpg)
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 09, 2010, 18:04:32
Here is the cab of a Daimler bus with pre-selective gearbox, showing the gear selector lever and quadrant:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/superkevs/4188950304/

The driver moved the selector lever to the next gear required, but it didn't actually engage until the left pedal (equivalent to the clutch on normal types) was pressed and released.

Another common wartime utility bus was the Guy Arab 1. M&D had many of these with the 'long' bonnet to take a Gardner LW6 engine, although only having an LW5 (or was it an AEC?). An unusual feature was the gearbox 'H' having 1st and 2nd gears on the right, and 3rd and 4th on the left.
Title: Buses
Post by: Bobnich on November 09, 2010, 19:57:18
Peterchall
I think the problem was that the transmission system often required special training for both engineering and driving staff. Your Chatham & District stuff is superb by the way with some fantastic photographs. You rarely see anything in the magazines about C & D, so I have learnt a lot already from your posts on here. The two photos of the Bristol clearly show the difference between the two bodies, I have always liked the lines of the Weymann bodies. I have a Corgi model of the Bristol with a utility body which is a nice model (GKT 550) which is of course the bus in your bottom photo with a later body. Are there any C & D buses in preservation do you know?
Title: Buses
Post by: Megapack162 on November 09, 2010, 20:35:23
My heads still got dents from sitting downstairs on DLs and forgetting.

I got my one and only ride on a DL Atlantean when 6445 (as it later became) operated the Math School to Chalk service just before withdrawal in 1977 or 78.
Upstairs it had normally arranged seats in the front and raised benches with a sunken side gangway for the last 3 rows.

Here it is after withdrawal whilst attempts were being made to preserve it, you can just about make out the raised seats at the back....

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/4325651036_6c10403cfe_z.jpg?zz=1)
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 09, 2010, 20:46:36
Peterchall
 Are there any C & D buses in preservation do you know?
GKE 68 is being preserved by 'Friends of Chatham Traction', but I don't know how far they've got. Here is their website, but again it is not complete as of today: http://www.chathamtraction.org.uk/#url
Title: Buses
Post by: patmore on November 09, 2010, 22:07:14
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29485695@N02/5065070391/
I asked earlier about the old Dodson that ran around Hastings, this is the one I meant.
                                                                                                             James
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 10, 2010, 08:33:22
The photo was taken on 9th October 2010, so she must still be preserved. A Commer TS3 engine was chosen because it is 'flat' and would therefore fit under the floor. Presumably a Commer clutch and gearbox (not needed for a trolleybus) was fitted.

I'm writing from memory here, but I thought that the trolleybuses kept the old tram logo of 'Hastings Tramways' and were blue. So I'm puzzled as to why this bus is red and white, and lettered 'Hastings and District'.
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 10, 2010, 11:35:24
This link gives more details of the preserved Hastings trolleybus, including the fitting and operation of the TS3 engine:
http://www.1066.net/trolley/

But this is about the first trolleybuses, with 6 wheels. My recollection is of 4 wheelers with Weymann bodies identical to those favoured by M&D and C&D. I found a poor quality photo showing a trolleybus in M&D livery, with the M&D logo, I imagine taken just before the trolleybuses were abandoned. I still think they had 'Hastings Tramways' as a logo, and 'Hastings Tramways Company' name may have been retained even after trolleys took over. I know this is not Kent, but are there any 'foreigners' from Sussex who can confirm or deny? :)
The Registration of the bus in the photo was BDY864. Does anyone know when that registration was issued?
Title: Buses
Post by: seafordpete on November 10, 2010, 12:30:28
Does any one remember an M&D bus similar to this
http://www.buspics.co.uk/old-buses (http://www.buspics.co.uk/old-buses)   it used to get put into service in emergencies about 1960. I remember it having a flatter,  black (fabric?) covered roof and possibly a bit squarer so earlier than the one in the pic. Real tip inside, seats worn out
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 10, 2010, 13:03:05
Seafordpete,
This link lists all M&D Leyland Tigers. Perhaps you can identify yours from the list.
http://www.skylineaviation.co.uk/buses/mdtig.html

As well as Hastings Tramways, didn't M&D have another subsidiary in the Hastings area until about the 1960s, running coaches?
Title: Buses
Post by: patmore on November 10, 2010, 13:11:12
Skinners
       James
Title: Buses
Post by: Peterj on November 10, 2010, 13:41:00
 M & D Daimler Fleetline lowbridge just entered service in the mid 60's on a football special "comfort stop" (Gillingham playing at Aldershot).  http://www.flickr.com/photos/30517988@N06/2857773872/in/contacts/
Title: Buses
Post by: patmore on November 10, 2010, 13:45:12
Having not 'spotted a bus' since my schooldays I could not initially see myself getting involved with this thread. However old memories are being jogged and previously unanswered questions remain. So.....is it true that the original double deckers,which if memory serves were Saunders Roe,taken to the Isle of Sheppey had to be assembled on the island owing to the restrictions of the Sheppey bridge?
                                                                               James
Title: Buses
Post by: patmore on November 10, 2010, 13:50:48
Brider, the old Dodson was also a feature of Chatham Carnival in the 60s.
                                                                                     James
Title: Buses
Post by: patmore on November 10, 2010, 14:06:29
http://www.skylineaviation.co.uk/buses/mdreg.html
          This link has pics and info of Skinners although the livery is not red and cream as I recall.
                                                                                                                              James
Title: Buses
Post by: Bobnich on November 10, 2010, 15:06:00
Peterchall,   Re. the Hastings Trolleybuses.  The first trolleys ran in Hastings on April 1st 1928 after replacing trams. They belonged to The Hastings Tramways Company.  This company was taken over By M & D in 1935 but still ran there fleet in Hastings livery, of, I think Green and Cream, although I might be wrong about that.  The company was completely absorbed into M & D in 1957 and the trolleys were given M & D fleetnames. I have a nice photo which I will try to scan and put on the forum but I might need to ask my 12 year old daughter how to do it!! The system closed down in 1959 and at least one of the fleet, no.37 a Weymann bodied Sunbeam W, headed north to Walsall where it continued to run for another decade.  
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 10, 2010, 15:07:54
Having not 'spotted a bus' since my schooldays I could not initially see myself getting involved with this thread. However old memories are being jogged and previously unanswered questions remain. So.....is it true that the original double deckers,which if memory serves were Saunders Roe,taken to the Isle of Sheppey had to be assembled on the island owing to the restrictions of the Sheppey bridge?
                                              
                                                                                                        James
That's a feature of belonging to KHF. A casual remark jogs a memory, which raises a question, and the answer to that raises another question... time consuming but enjoyable.

Yes, the top decks of double deckers had to be taken off to get them on Sheppey. They were specially constructed so that could be done easily, rather than completely assembled on the island. I thought they were made by Short Brothers as a second string job when aircraft manufacture was in the doldrums; but Saunders-Roe also made aircraft, so perhaps one or the other of us is associating our memory with that. But Shorts definitely made bus bodies, and I think some were fitted to Tilling-Stevens chassis made at Maidstone and operated by M&D - truly a complete local affair.

Re the Hastings trolleybus: Buses are usually designated by the chassis manufacturer, Guy in this case. So why has it been called a Dodson, after the bodywork.
Title: Buses
Post by: Bobnich on November 10, 2010, 15:21:06
Re. The Hastings Trolleybus.  Interesting one that! The "Dodson" appears to have a Guy chassis and bodywork by Chritopher Dodson. The below website lists every trolleybus ever running in Britain so may be of interest. 

www.trolleybus.co.uk/tbusnet.htm
Title: Buses
Post by: Megapack162 on November 10, 2010, 16:15:46
I found a poor quality photo showing a trolleybus in M&D livery, with the M&D logo, I imagine taken just before the trolleybuses were abandoned. I still think they had 'Hastings Tramways' as a logo, and 'Hastings Tramways Company' name may have been retained even after trolleys took over. I know this is not Kent, but are there any 'foreigners' from Sussex who can confirm or deny? :)
The Registration of the bus in the photo was BDY864. Does anyone know when that registration was issued?

Peterchall: I've had a look through the M&D illustrated fleet history, it contains details about the Hastings trolleys but they didn't appear to buy any new ones after a batch of 5 Sunbeam Ws in 1948, these were registered BDY816-820.
When they were absorbed by M&D in 1957, their operational fleet carried the registration numbers BDY776-820 inclusive dating from 1940 through to 1948, anything older than 1940 had been withdrawn by 1952.

Every trolley delivered after 1935 was painted in standard M&D green and cream with Hastings Tramways one the sides, ultimately replaced by the Maidstone & District scroll from 1957 until closure in 1959.
Title: Buses
Post by: Megapack162 on November 10, 2010, 16:30:43
As well as Hastings Tramways, didn't M&D have another subsidiary in the Hastings area until about the 1960s, running coaches?

Peterchall/James:
Skinners (taken over in 1953) were dark blue whereas Scout (taken over in 1951) were cream and red, their liveries were retained on the vehicles absorbed until the early 60s as a goodwill measure (I'm sure that M&D retained some of the customers because of it).

M&D ordered some new coaches in the early 60s which were also painted in their old liveries, these lasted until 1969 when they reverted to standard coach livery.
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 10, 2010, 20:55:59
Every trolley delivered after 1935 was painted in standard M&D green and cream with Hastings Tramways one the sides, ultimately replaced by the Maidstone & District scroll from 1957 until closure in 1959.

So were the pre-1935 ones red & white with 'Hastings & District' name, in which case the restoration is accurate? But from previous posts it seems that there never was a 'Hastings Tramways Co'!

Where did I get my original idea that Hastings trolleys were blue (Reply#29)? Perhaps I was thinking of Maidstone Corporation, but they were brown and white.....weren't they? And they had a mixed fleet of buses and trolleys. If I'm not careful I'll start another thread going :)
Title: Buses
Post by: patmore on November 11, 2010, 04:36:02
Thanks for the explanation of the liveries Megapack,so it was Scout I remember in red and cream
                                                                                                                         James
Title: Buses
Post by: Bobnich on November 11, 2010, 08:27:44
Peterchall,  Hastings and District ran buses in the livery of red and cream/white but only it, appears, from the early 80's, becoming a seperate company in 1983.  Previous to that the area seems to have been served by M & D buses as well as the trolleybuse up until 1959.  I suspect that because the Dodson has been fitted with a diesel engine( in 1960) it was painted in Hastings and District colours but the dates don't really tally do they? Very odd.   There definitely were two seperate companies, Hastings and District and Hastings Tramways Company.  I had a funny feeling that the Hastings trolleys were blue as well, but the only photos I can find are green and cream, the same as M & D, but as it was a subsidiary of M & D from early on I suppose they used the same livery with different fleet names. Thanks for the info. re. the C & D bus in preservation.
Title: Buses
Post by: Megapack162 on November 11, 2010, 09:50:44
So were the pre-1935 ones red & white with 'Hastings & District' name, in which case the restoration is accurate? But from previous posts it seems that there never was a 'Hastings Tramways Co'!

Where did I get my original idea that Hastings trolleys were blue (Reply#29)? Perhaps I was thinking of Maidstone Corporation, but they were brown and white.....weren't they? And they had a mixed fleet of buses and trolleys. If I'm not careful I'll start another thread going :)

Peterchall / Bobnich:

The trolleys operated independently up until 1935 as the "Hastings and District Electric Tramways Co", their livery was maroon and cream with gold lettering on the sides. From 1935 after M&D bought out the company, they were repainted green and cream but most retained the Hastings and District name, albeit in a belt & buckle style on the front.
After 1940 the new vehicles were delivered in green and cream with "Hastings Tramways" lettering on the front and sides.

The Hastings and District name was initially resurrected in December 1980 when services operated out of Hastings, Rye and Hawkhurst were branded independently of M&D; the name being fully restored when the East Sussex operations were split into a wholly independent company albeit still uner the National Bus Company umbrella.

Maidstone Corporation's trolleys were brown and cream, their buses were pale blue and cream.

Credit for this information goes to the M&D Illustrated Fleet History (1911 - 1995) published by the M&D and East Kent Bus Club.
Title: Buses
Post by: Megapack162 on November 11, 2010, 09:57:22
Having not 'spotted a bus' since my schooldays I could not initially see myself getting involved with this thread. However old memories are being jogged and previously unanswered questions remain. So.....is it true that the original double deckers,which if memory serves were Saunders Roe,taken to the Isle of Sheppey had to be assembled on the island owing to the restrictions of the Sheppey bridge?
                                                    
                                                                                                  James

According to the M&D fleet history, buses were driven across without their top desks where possible but those that were difficult to split had to be driven across private land and the mud flats at low tide. Once delivered to the island they stayed there, all servicing was carried out locally until the low rail bridge was replaced in 1960.
Title: Buses
Post by: Bobnich on November 11, 2010, 11:40:43
Megapack,   Thanks for that.  That explains everything! My big interest is the Nottingham trolleybus system and there is a link with Kent! The first trolleys used on the Nottingham system were 10 Railless LF's with Short bodywork, built by Short Bros. of Rochester. I think they stopped production of bus bodywork shortly afterwards, so if anyone out there knows more...........................................
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 11, 2010, 12:18:19
Thanks for the replies, Megapack162.
I'm going to deal with 3 different items here:
1)   Re Reply#53, it seems that Hastings buses went through a chequered history of liveries and company name.
2)   Re Reply#54, my understanding was that the DD bodies were specially designed to have top decks removed, but that may have applied to pre-war buses which were all Leyland Titans. Perhaps the ones that were difficult were wartime utility bodies that would have been standard. I'm not presuming to gainsay the M&D history, but just wondering if this gives more detail. Do you know the make of the bodies concerned?
3)   Back to Reply#53, quoting ?Maidstone Corporation's trolleys were brown and cream, their buses were pale blue and cream?. I knew I'd seen blue buses somewhere :).

I have a couple of memories of their services;
(a)   The trolleys terminated alternately at the 'Fountain' and the 'Bull' at the western end of the route, but I'm not sure about the other terminus - was it Penenden Heath, where there is still what could have been a turning circle on Sandling Road?; if so, what route did they take. I believe there was a motorbus route to Penenden Heath that went via Sandling Road and Perryfield Street.
(b)   The motorbuses were Crossleys, not a very common make and, from their appearance, I don't think the bodies were a common make either.
Title: Buses
Post by: Megapack162 on November 11, 2010, 15:19:23
Of course in 1974 when the Borough Council came into being, they decided that double deckers were bad and dumped them all in favour of high capacity single deckers. The independents loved it however, picking up the best part of 30 buses which were less than 10 years old, some were only 2-3 years old.
Title: Buses
Post by: peterchall on November 11, 2010, 16:17:38
Thanks again Megapack. It has come back to me now. The trolleys ran to Sutton Road and Loose. The bus service to Penenden Heath ran via Perryfield Street; I presumed it was a trolley service because the terminal had a turning circle.
It seems as if the history of Maidstone Corporation was nearly as complex as Hastings. Here is a pre-war Crossley Mancunian; I think they were white (or cream) and brown:
                                       (http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/petec-photo/mancunian1.jpg)

There are many pictures of Maidstone buses and trolleys in this next link, and it seems that both were brown until the trolleys were replaced, then became blue. I had completely forgotten they had Daimlers and both short and long bonnet Guy Arabs:
http://jasperstransportphotographs.fotopic.net/c1376301.html



Title: Buses
Post by: Megapack162 on November 11, 2010, 17:56:41
I found these pictures a while back on the Transport Photos website of WFN839 and WFN840 approaching the Allington roundabout where the A20(m) "Maidstone Bypass" split from the A20, on their way to the land of red and cream in 1961?

(http://www.transportphotos.com/images/photos/road/VS01498-Bd1.jpg)
(http://www.transportphotos.com/images/photos/road/VS01498-Ad1.jpg)

and while we're at it, recovering buses...

(http://www.transportphotos.com/images/photos/road/RS00139-E1.jpg)
(http://www.transportphotos.com/images/photos/road/RS00139-D2.jpg)

I dread to think how it happened but given it was only 4 years old at the time, it was repaired and lasted in service until 1981
Title: Buses
Post by: Peterj on November 11, 2010, 22:14:37
East Kent buses in Canterbury 1951 plus other transport of that time;
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=59682
Title: Buses
Post by: Peterj on November 11, 2010, 22:39:39
Maidstone & District coaches in 1964. These are all AEC Reliance 470 fitted with Harrington 41 seat Wayfarer bodies which were new in 1958 - 1960. There are a few unrestored survivors of this type in storage.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=63695

Title: Buses
Post by: Peterj on November 12, 2010, 21:45:02
If you like coaches from 1965..........................I don't know if any were from Kent though..........surely at least one!

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=70126
Title: Buses
Post by: gully on November 26, 2010, 18:56:49
Reading with interest stories from the Buses.
My late Father worked for M&D from post war until we Emigrated to Canada in 1957. I think mostly at Gravesend but sometime in Gillingham.

Living in Luton we knew many of the Conductors which worked great for as a Kid as very often they would 'forget' to collect my fare. Gave me some extra spending money.

After reading this discussion I remembered I have several issues of Inside Only which appears to be a M&D and Hasting Tramways newsletter

If someone can explain how I have images of a Bus was converted daily to a truck

Another of the a converted 1946 A.E.C Regal Mark 1
used in Hasting as a tour Bus

Pete g

Title: Buses
Post by: gully on November 27, 2010, 15:18:22

Quality is not the best but is very close to that published originally

Must really wonder with limited equipment how much work it was to remove a Bus Body and replace with Truck [Whops Lorry] Body




(http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n507/gully10/TruckBus.jpg)


(http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n507/gully10/HastingsBus.jpg)
Title: Buses
Post by: busyglen on February 09, 2011, 19:31:30
I've just come across a load of scanned photos of Sheppey in a relatives folder, don't know where from, but these two buses were amongst them.  They look a bit blurred, as it looks as if they were enlarged, but thought they might be of interest. Had a quick check, but couldn't see them already posted.

NB:  Yippee DB.   Photobucket worked!!

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i209/busyglen/Bus1.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i209/busyglen/bus2.jpg)
Title: Buses
Post by: Sentinel S4 on February 09, 2011, 21:31:24
Interesting to see so much on Busses. There is a Maidstone Trolley Bus at the Carlton Coalville transpsort museum near Lowestoft. I damn near put the car in a ditch when I saw a Brown and Cream double decker with 'Bull Inn Barming' on the roller blind. I know it is not Kent but the post on the Hastings Trolley bus; is it really diesel engined now? I saw it about two years ago on the Autoroute just North East of Verne in Belgium. It was towing a trailer with a couple of thick cables leading up to the trolley poles. The trailer did look like a generator. She was doing about 25mph at the time. I was one of the many HGV drivers caught out by the speed, or lack of, and nearly remodeled the rear end of the machine......... Hey Ho
Title: Buses
Post by: patmore on February 10, 2011, 14:42:45
 I posted this on another thread recently. If it had a half cab and a door at the back it was a real bus, when I was a young lad the only difference was that red and cream buses were 'seaside buses'!
                                                            James
(http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab63/OLDLUTONBOY/OldLuton3-1.jpg)
Title: Buses
Post by: delboy on February 14, 2011, 15:37:03
These are some p/cards and photos that I have collected. A couple I got from the M&D and East Kent Bus Club a few years ago. The adverts are from  1923 and 1935 Dover guides.

(http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/dovermarine/castle.jpg)
(http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/dovermarine/Pen.jpg)
(http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/dovermarine/MkSq.jpg)
(http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/dovermarine/mksq1960.jpg)
(http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/dovermarine/EK.jpg)
(http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/dovermarine/dover1.jpg)
(http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/dovermarine/1923.jpg)
(http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/dovermarine/1935.jpg)
Title: Buses
Post by: delboy on February 14, 2011, 19:20:45
one more from the M&D and East Kent Car museum. This is where the Cannon St. shell landed and the damage is under repair. You can see the bus crew standing in front of the bus and there are some people aboard.I would assume that they reversed into Market Street and then went off up the town when ready,delboy

(http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/dovermarine/MktSqrshellholerepair.jpg)
Title: Buses
Post by: alkhamhills on February 14, 2011, 20:54:34
Dellboy--that pic of the market Square, posted today 14th feb. Is that the Pelosi coffee bar opposite Nat West Bank?  A reminder of my misspent youth in early 50's, playing the juke box!! Sounds soft by today's standards !
Title: Buses
Post by: TowerWill on February 15, 2011, 08:12:50
A nice collection of pictures!Delboy's pictures of buses in the Market Square reminded me of being there one very hot day probably between 1968 and 1971.This big articulated lorry came out of Castle Street and turned right around the roundabout to go up Cannon Street.Many of us will have noticed tarmac turning soft in hot weather,well the inevitable happened and the lorry's trailer wheels pushed the tarmac up into ridges.They were there next to the roundabout for ages.
Title: Buses
Post by: chuffchuff on February 15, 2011, 12:33:19
Friend was working on this
Getting a good rub down

(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c138/chuffchuff/SUV%20bits/Cars/HarveyPics016.jpg)
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c138/chuffchuff/SUV%20bits/Cars/HarveyPics138.jpg)

Paint all done

(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c138/chuffchuff/SUV%20bits/Cars/HarveyPics160.jpg)
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c138/chuffchuff/SUV%20bits/Cars/HarveyPics159.jpg)

Non standard interior

(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c138/chuffchuff/SUV%20bits/Cars/HarveyPics148.jpg)
Title: Buses
Post by: DaveTheTrain on April 16, 2011, 18:48:10
I see that GKE 68 has come up in this thread, I hope nobody minds, or they may be interested in the pics I have of GKE 68, taken about 7 or 8 years ago.  They were forwarded to me when the owners were looking for a buyer to take the vehicle on.  As a collector of scrap / interesting old iron I was a potential candidate but did not have the room at the time with several other vintage vehicles to stable, although an old bus will one day feature in the plans.

Anyhow, here goes

(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/ShottendenAveling/Platform.jpg)

(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/ShottendenAveling/OSLowerPanels2.jpg)

(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/ShottendenAveling/Lower20deck20rear1.jpg)

(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/ShottendenAveling/FrontNS.jpg)

Regards
Dave
Title: Buses
Post by: Paolo on June 05, 2011, 19:54:07
Fascinating pictures of East Kent buses but does anybody remember/have information or pictures on  Sargents single-decker buses that ran from Folkestone to Hythe in the late 40s or early 50s?  I believe they used the same stops and route as the 103/103a from Wood Avenue to the Light Railway. 
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: torpointblue on October 23, 2011, 12:56:31
Sorry I cant recall bus names and types but I need confirmation of a seating arrangement that nobody I've spoken too can ever remember. Please somebody tell me I'm not going mad :-).. I lived on Twydall Estate and went too Napier Road School. So I'm talking about the No1 bus route. Circa 1960. Upstairs there was one footwell Isle on the right hand side . You had to step up into the seats which were 4 seater benches . This arrangement caused for head hight on the right hand side of the lower deck was approx 9 inches lower . anybody else remember this ???
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: peterchall on October 23, 2011, 13:15:37
This was the lo-bridge layout that reduced the height of a double decker for use on routes that had a low bridge on the way. They wouldn't have been in regular use on Service 1 to Maidstone because there were no low bridges. The only service that I can recall needing lo-bridge buses from the Medway Towns was Service 20, via Snodland, West Malling etc, to Maidstone, because of a low bridge on London Road just outside Maidstone. Any service from Maidstone along that road needed them, such as to Sevenoaks.

Lo-bridge buses in the M&D fleet were numbered DLxxx, as compared to DHxxx for normal height double deckers.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: torpointblue on October 23, 2011, 13:36:33
Many thanks Peterchall.I'm glad I'm not going crazy . Must have been for relief use as you say because we rarely had one like that . Just remembered it because it was different .
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: Paul on October 23, 2011, 14:19:57
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skgMIfJHqeg :)
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: peterchall on October 23, 2011, 17:05:52
Bristols made a low height double decker, called the 'Lodekka', that had the normal centre gangway layout on the top deck. This was acheived by lowering the bottom deck by using a drop-centre rear axle with the prop-shaft drive from the gearbox passing down one side of the bus to the rear axle, clear of the gangway. This meant that there was a bulge in the floor passing under the seats nearest the side (I think left side) of the lower deck; the drive then had to be taken across to the other side by a system of gears to a low shaft passing across under the flooor, with more gears to bring the drive up to the centre of the road wheel on that side. Complex and expensive, and it seems that M&D didn't have any. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Lodekka

With the advent of the rear engined bus, such as the Leyland Atlantean, there was no need for a prop-shaft to run the length of the vehicle, so the floor could be low anyway. Nevertheless, I have a vague memory of M&D having some Atlanteans with the lo-deck configuration, thus giving a 'lo-lo-decker' - can anyone confirm?
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: Lyn L on October 23, 2011, 17:14:47
I remember those buses, but that was in the Ramsgate  and Broadstairs area and must have been in the 50s sometime, perhaps the bridges were low there ?  the one for the railway in Broadstairs seemed low, we always 'ducked' when we went under it  :) but what they were I have no idea it was just a bus to young child.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: chasg on October 24, 2011, 04:27:21
http://www.showbus.com/gallery/south/h&d2.htm

and, getting back on track,

http://www.lvvs.org.uk/wh1553.htm

:)
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: mikeb on October 24, 2011, 10:49:34
Quote
With the advent of the rear engined bus, such as the Leyland Atlantean, there was no need for a prop-shaft to run the length of the vehicle, so the floor could be low anyway. Nevertheless, I have a vague memory of M&D having some Atlanteans with the lo-deck configuration, thus giving a 'lo-lo-decker' - can anyone confirm?

Quite right peterchall. They were outwardly the same as a "normal" height Atlantean, just not so high. Fourteen of the original order of fifty Atlanteans were of low height  for operating under a low bridge in the Hastings area, I believe Cooden Railway Bridge. All initial fifty were allocated to Hastings as trolleybus replacements in 1959. Thereafter M&D only took Daimler Fleetlines when a low bridge type was required.

Hope this confirms your memory!
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: peterchall on October 24, 2011, 11:38:32
Thanks. Like Torpointblue earlier, i'm glad to have my memory confirmed. Now to clarify a further point if possible - due to the lower floor, are today's 'standard' double deckers lower than the old front engined/rear platform ones? I ask because they use the A20 London Road out of Maidstone, passing under the same railway bridge (with presumably the same clearance) that once required the old lo-deckers.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: mikeb on October 24, 2011, 11:57:55
The railway bridge out of Maidstone on the A20 at Allington, aka "Kent Messenger Bridge" to old(er) bus men, is high enough to take a standard height bus. Maidstone depot, and Borough Green, had an allocation of low bridge double deckers in order to pass under the bridge between East & West Malling. In my day these were all Fleetlines although Maidstone did acquire one of the low bridge Atlanteans from Hastings for a while. Buses operating Maidstone - West Malling direct were / are of a standard height. Modern double deck buses are, as far as I know all standard height, the same as standard height front engined buses of yore. To-day if operators have a low bridge to negotiate they buy high capacity single deckers. As far as I know, and I stand to be corrected, no manufacturer offers a low height double decker.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: peterchall on October 24, 2011, 13:02:14
Yes, it does. It looks like I was thinking of the wrong bridge. The 1951 M&D timetable shows 3 routes between East and West Malling - No20 that I've already mentioned; No9, Maidstone to Sevenoaks; and No25, Maidstone to Wrotham. I know Nos 9 and 20 used lo-deckers, and presumably No25 used them or single deckers.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: seafordpete on October 24, 2011, 13:22:51
Did the 25 go into W Mallling or just pass it on the A20?  Hated the DLs always smashed my head if downstairs or fell into the trough footway upstairs, after negociating 3 other people on the bench seat
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: mikeb on October 24, 2011, 13:43:16
Over time of course routes were altered to serve developing areas of Larkfield and East / West Malling, but basically in the 1960/70's it was :-
Service 9 Maidstone - Borough Green - Sevenoaks and service 20 Maidstone - Snodland - Gillingham went via East / West Malling via the low bridge. These services HAD to be low bridge buses or they would be converted to open toppers by the bridge. It did happen!!
Service 25 Maidstone - West Malling - Wrotham - Borough Green and service 109 Bearsted - Maidstone - West Malling both went via A20 & Town Hill. These could be normal height buses. There were however peak variations especially for school term when a 25 or 109 was routed via East Malling and the operating staff had to be on their toes when allocating buses, especially early mornings. It was not unknown for an inspector to be dispatched by car very urgently to catch up a service which had been given the wrong size bus!! I've done it! Service 20 was jointly operated by Maidstone & Gillingham and Gillingham were especially adroit at this.

The other consideration of course was to avoid low trees, but that's another story.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: peterchall on October 24, 2011, 14:46:34
They probably varied over time, but Sept 1951 timetable shows all 9 (2/hr), 20 (1/hr), and 25 (1/hr) journeys via E & W Malling, and all 109 (1/hr) journeys via A20. No 20 ran 1/2 hourly from Gillingham to W Malling, only alternate journeys going on to Maidstone and requiring lo-dekkers.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: Megapack162 on October 24, 2011, 17:40:20
Quote
With the advent of the rear engined bus, such as the Leyland Atlantean, there was no need for a prop-shaft to run the length of the vehicle, so the floor could be low anyway. Nevertheless, I have a vague memory of M&D having some Atlanteans with the lo-deck configuration, thus giving a 'lo-lo-decker' - can anyone confirm?

Quite right peterchall. They were outwardly the same as a "normal" height Atlantean, just not so high. Fourteen of the original order of fifty Atlanteans were of low height  for operating under a low bridge in the Hastings area, I believe Cooden Railway Bridge. All initial fifty were allocated to Hastings as trolleybus replacements in 1959. Thereafter M&D only took Daimler Fleetlines when a low bridge type was required.

Hope this confirms your memory!

Peterchall,
The Bristol Lodekka (and all other Bristol Commercial Vehicles products) were unavailable to Maidstone & District and other BET (British Electric Traction) companies between 1948 and 1969.

M&D's lowbridge Atlanteans were bodied by Weymann and seated 73 as opposed to 78 (later 77) for the Highbridge versions because they lost 5 seats upstairs.

I spent the last few years periodically looking for interior photos of the original lowbridge Atlanteans after my one and only trip on Maidstone & District 6445 (45DKT) which was covering a Rochester Maths school service not long before its withdrawal in 1978.

I finally found some on Flickr, namely Trent and Ribble examples which are thankfully now preserved as none of M&Ds were saved, especially DL43 which was one of the first 4 to be built and was exhibited at the 1958 motor show.

Hopefully these photos show the main differences between Atlantean PDR1/1 highbridge and lowbridge variants (later PDR1/2s had a drop centre rear axle that removed the need for a sunken gangway altogether).

Lowbridge PDR1/1, upstairs looking rearwards
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2623/4156771618_ef0778ea02.jpg)

Highbridge PDR1/1, upstairs looking rearwards
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5264/5605702854_ab7890e6db.jpg)

Lowbridge PDR1/1, downstairs showing the bulge into the upper deck although the nearside (just out of view) still has reduced headroom because of the upstairs side gangway
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5196147445_870cf1a436.jpg)

Mikeb,
The lowheight Daimler Fleetlines were ordered to allow the complete replacement of the front entrance lowbridge buses, along with high capacity single deckers.
In 1973 when the lowbridge Atlanteans started to show their age, M&D received their first new Bristol buses for 25 years, they were Bristol VRTs with extra low ECW (Eastern Coach Works) bodies that were 13' 5" high but had 77 seats, the lowbridge Atlanteans' days were numbered and all 14 had been sold by 1978.
Seven were sold to Western National in Cornwall and they (along with another 26 highbridge versions) allowed the rapid conversion of services to one man operation, soldiering on until final withdrawal and scrapping in 1982.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: smiler on February 21, 2012, 08:36:11
May 1st 1928 A sight for astonished eyes in Kent is the trolley bus, seen for the first time this week in Maidstone on the well used route to Barming. Northern cities have been using them for years but a regular service in London has still to be introduced. If the Maidstone experiment is a success a trolleybus will also run to Loose.            Kent a chronicle of the century by Bob Ogley.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: preserje21 on March 11, 2012, 20:01:58
New here - I wonder if anyone can help me with details of a couple of M&D routes running out of Tunbridge Wells, no doubt, but straying across the border into Sussex. As a kid, in the mid 1960s, our family occasionally undertook a rather lengthy trek by bus from Biggin Hill to Rotherfield to see my grandparents. It would start with an invariably long wait for a 705 Green Line to Sevenoaks, where we would have another long wait usually for a 704 to Tunbridge Wells. The Green Lines from London were always held up in traffic. Once in Tunbridge Wells, I remember we would walk round the corner from the London Transport bus stop to an array of M&D stops in front of a rather grand building set back from the road with flower arrangements in front - a little higher than the road, I think. I cannot remember the route number of the bus we used to catch then, to Mark Cross, but I think it went to Haywards Heath, or maybe Eastbourne - it was jointly operated with Southdown, and was usually the lovely 36 foot BET single-decker - maybe Leyland Leopards with Willowbrook bodies? We then connected with an unusually short M&D (Reliance?) to Crowborough via Rotherfield and Jarvis Brook - I would like to know the route number. We would alight at the Rotherfield & Mark Cross station, closed (I have just found out) in 1965 - it was still open when we first started going there - once we returned by steam train to Oxted (and they let me in the cab - a nice memory!) Anyway - reading this part of the forum seems to reveal a number of folk who possess incredibly detailed information about buses - even back then. So, can anyone help?
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: peterchall on March 11, 2012, 23:10:14
The best I can do is to give you information from the Summer 1957 timetable.

In 1957 you could have gone from Tunbridge Wells to Rotherfield without changing, on Service 90 which was Tunbridge Wells Mark Cross Rotherfield Crowborough.

Other services from Tunbridge Wells to Mark Cross were:
79 to Uckfield, 152 to Hastings, and 191 to Eastbourne (this would have been the joint service with Southdown)

There was also a Saturday only Service 92 from Wadhurst Mark Cross Rotherfield Crowborough that you could have changed to by getting one of the above buses to Mark Cross, but things might have changed by the 1960s

You can follow the routes that I listed on this 1951 map, except for the section of the 191 between Heathfield and Hailsham:
http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5113.msg42913#msg42913

The grand building in Tunbridge Wells where the bus stops were is The Assembly Halls.

Hoping this helps.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: peterchall on March 12, 2012, 12:31:55
Some more information:
The Saturday only Service 92, Wadhurst - Crowborough, was withdrawn in 1958, so it was not that you transferred to.
If it helps to jog the memory, Services 79 and 90 were one-man operated from the mid-1950's, Services 152 and 191 went one-man from May 1966 - previously they had conductors.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: editorsfoot on March 12, 2012, 19:56:06

The grand building in Tunbridge Wells where the bus stops were is The Assembly Halls.


I think the grand building would have been the library and / or town hall, the bus stops would have been on Mount Pleasant and the LT stops at the bottom of Lime Hill Rd. I don't ever recall any bus stops by the assembly halls as all the buses would have come along Monson Road where a number of stops were located.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: peterchall on March 12, 2012, 20:58:15
The 'timetable point' is "Tunbridge Wells, War Memorial" and the bus stops are still there. Facing the War Memorial the left hand building is the Library and the right hand one is the Town Hall/Assembly Hall, but agreed that the entrance to the latter is round the corner off Crescent Road.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: preserje21 on March 12, 2012, 21:17:06
Wow - thank you, Peterchall in particular. The 90 rings a bell - we would not have started to go there before maybe 1961/2 as my grandfather retired in 1960 and they were living in Hayes near Bromley before retiring to Rotherfield. I seem to recall that we did not always have to change at Mark Cross, and also seem to recall that we had a choice of buses to Mark Cross, and I have a dim memory of conductors, but always just the driver on the little bus down to Rotherfield station. Maybe they curtailed the Tun Wells to Mark Cross section of the 90, maybe just at weekends (when we would most likely be travelling). I don't recall ever waiting at Mark Cross - there was a direct connection. I do remember now that the stops in Tun Wells were called the War Memorial, and think I was told that the grand building was the library. I think it was mostly the 191 we caught to Mark Cross. Thank you so much for filling in these details. One other thing I have forgotten from my Green Rover days in the late '60s was the M&D route (again an unusually small bus) from Sevenoaks to Borough Green garage using the back roads - beautiful trip, especially in spring with all the blossom - can't remember that route number either.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: smiffy on December 05, 2017, 19:38:11
An early picture of a couple of M&D buses, taken if not before the first world war, then almost certainly very soon after. The front one is a Tilling Stevens, service No.1 Maidstone and Chatham. I can't determine the make of the other one but the service is No.3 Maidstone and Faversham.

 I can't identify the location - presumably it's somewhere in Maidstone?
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: mikeb on December 05, 2017, 20:30:23
A lovely photo smiffy.
I think it was taken in Palace Ave. Maidstone, opposite to the Mill St. Bus Station. The Len is behind the stone wall.
As you say KK 3788 is a Tilling Stevens and was new in 1914.
Kn 2395 is a Leyland, new in 1919.
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: conan on December 06, 2017, 00:07:37
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Featherstones
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: smiffy on December 06, 2017, 13:19:09
Interesting that most of the information cited in that wiki entry refers back to the KHF!
Title: Re: Buses
Post by: conan on December 06, 2017, 19:07:55
I spotted that as well, felt almost smug :)