Transportation => Work Vehicles => Topic started by: Sentinel S4 on July 27, 2011, 17:21:56

Title: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on July 27, 2011, 17:21:56
Many years ago I was shown this plate outside of Ruckinge Village hall. Since then it has deteriated and now looks very scruffy and unkempt, 36 years have gone and it looks like paint has passed it by.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m595/Sentinels4/AvelingSmokebox.jpg)

I am sorry for the poor camera work, but I got it all in and legible. Why is it here? What is the significance of this plate in an obscure English Village?

Thomas Aveling was born in 1824 in Cambridgeshire. Sadly his Father died soon after and his Mother later married a Rochester Clergyman who taught the young lad with Bible and Birch Cane, more of the latter than former if accounts are to be believed. When he was of age he was Apprenticed to a farmer near Ruckinge where he excelled. He soon took on a farm of his own, Court Lodge, and was found to be very good at repairing the farm implements of the day. He then opened up a workshop in Rochester, 1850, not sure of the location but would not be supprised if it has just been demolished. He was at the time working on the portable engines then in vogue and from one of these he built his first steam plough. Sadly there are no images of this in known existance. For the making of this machine he was given 300 Guineas, that is an indication of how important any advance in the improvement to ploughing was then. He then started to adapt Clayton and Shuttleworth portable engines to be self propelling status with a horse steering. Drive was by chain to one of the rear wheels via a reduction gear. Very soon it was realised that this machine could work without the horse so the shafts were drawn together and a fifth wheel with tiller steering added. The engine was over the firebox and there was no footplate for the driver. What these engine did for coal and water I really don't know. I can only think that they either hauled a cart with stores or the stores were hauled by horses behind. All of this time the engines were built by a third party to Avelings designs. This first engine was built in 1858 but by '59 Aveling had several patents out for these machines and he had built a recogniseable modern engine complete with a footplate with water and coal storage but still with the fifth wheel steering. This was no longer done by pulling the horse shafts together but was of Aveling's own patant design. By 1861 the cylinder had been moved to the front of the boiler, in the smokebox at first, and the Aveling works had been established where we all knew it by Rochester Bridge. These early engines suffered from the crankshaft and gearing shafts being mounted on brackets either riveted or bolted to the firebox top. The problem was that with the engine working the forces would wear the bolts and rivets leading to leaks and loose mountings. It was because of this that Aveling came up with his most important patent, this was for Horn Plates. These are in effect the firebox sides extended uo and back. This allowed the engine to become pat of the boiler and more rigid in fixing. It also allowed the hind axle to become one piece and both hind wheels to drive. This also lead to the use of differentials and suspension and the placement of a winch thereby making the steam engine far more useful for general work. The steersman was still out front with his tiller and wheel. Very soon the chain was lost and gearing becam the favoured drive and the steering wheel was replaced by worm driven steering gear from the footplate. Thus by 1870 was born the Modern Traction engine.

 Around 1865 Aveling was again making waves by building Rollers. The first of his rollers bore no resemblance to what we all deem to be a 'steam roller'. They were big, heavy and, to modern eyes, strange looking. They were steered by the hind rolls that were like the modern front roll but these were mounted in a frame that could rotate 360 deg. It was said that these could turn in their own length. The first was delivered to Liverpool and weighed in at a huge 30 tons. Later the same year he built a roller that looks very like a modern machin with the small rolls at the front steering and the hind rolls like smooth traction engine wheels. These had coned rolls that were steered from the center. Wonderful maths involved to get the angle of the axle right to match the taper of the rolls and to get them to meet at the point of contact with the road. Fairly soon this was done away with and a frame was designed to hold the rolls along with the extended headstock. By the time the last steam roller was produced by Aveling and Barford it was believed that in the British and former British Empire 70% of all rollers were Aveling and Porter or Aveling and Barford. This alone is an amazing statistic until you realise that 95% were built at Rochester.

Now that fine heritage has been lost by the demolition of the Aveling and Porter factory in Rochester. This plate is all that is left to remember that a man who was not of Kent but made the County his home and who put Invicta in almost every Country of the World. Invicta being the rampant horse of Kent, or as by some 'the prancing Nag'.

Sorry that I don't have any pics, I am not that good with a camera and copyright prevents me from other sources. Please feel free to add to this as I know there are holes, in the dates especially. That is the reason for the plate being there and the significance is that without Aveling we would not have had road rollers that worked from 1865 right into the 1970's. I know of one company that still has an Aveling 10 tonner as a working vehicle on their books.

Thanks for reading this, Sentinel S4.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: sheppey_bottles on July 27, 2011, 18:01:35
Would you or anyone have a picture of the Aveling and Porter Engine 'Old Vic' I think it was called or maybe just Vic, my wife drove this to Detling on her sixteenth birthday as a treat. The engine belonged to a distant relative of ours who has long since passed away. Looked on the net but could not find it.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on July 27, 2011, 19:31:15
I have found three pics of Avelings that could fit the bill. My thought is that it is the roller as she was in Kent for many years and I last saw her at Shepherdswell in the 1990's. I got these from the internet so I am sorry if they are too small.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m595/Sentinels4/HPIM02761.jpg)
(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m595/Sentinels4/2010-09-03_11-55-25_DSC_42101.jpg)
(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m595/Sentinels4/2010-08-08_14-24-37_DSC_01651.jpg)

All three are called Victoria. Regards, Sentinel S4.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: sheppey_bottles on July 27, 2011, 21:03:17
Thanks for posting the pics sentinel S4 but it is none of those I am afriad, but thanks all the same that is kind of you. I showed my wife and she says that it was a road roller as in pic1, but had large rear wheels as in pic3 with a full canopy over. She drove it up Detling hill to help promote the fair at Detling that year and of course as her birthday treat..you could drive one when you reached sixteen. She said she is 100% it was called the Old Vic and the owners name was Vic Roberts by the way. She think sher mum may have a photo but the trouble is they live in france and are not that great with computers etc. It would have been September 76 roughly.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: unfairytale on July 27, 2011, 21:03:40
Didn't Thomas Aveling copy some of his designs from a Folkestone engineer called Bray?
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on July 27, 2011, 21:09:02
Hi, ShottendenAveling might know of the engine. Canopies come and go and so do names, it makes life interesting for research. I am just checking up on Bray at the moment. Maybe another thread................. Sentinel S4.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: DaveTheTrain on July 27, 2011, 21:33:25
SentinelS4 is spot on, names come and go which can make tracking down engines difficult. 

However "Old Vic" is shown in the 1982 register.  It has since been renamed "King George" and is owned by a freind of mine.  The details are engine number 10271, reg no ME2103.  Built in 1922 and is a 10 ton roller.  It had a new firebox in about 2002.   It can be seen very often at Chatham Dockyard steam rallies.

A pic for you as it is now:

Shot

(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/ShottendenAveling/AvelingPorter10271KingGeorge.jpg)
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: sheppey_bottles on July 27, 2011, 21:53:42
I have just shown my wife the picture and she says that it looks like Old Vic but thinks the name along the canopy is not what she remembers. She said that she remembers having to walk on the opposite side wheel to move the axle back, ,sort of walking the wheel off, if that make sense. She was also in the local paper with this engine and was very annoyed with the reporter as he smeared her face with grease before he took a picture. What sixteen year old wants her face smeared with grease in a photo :) Thanks so much for your help, both of you, if she gets a photo from her mum I will put it on. SB.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: DaveTheTrain on July 27, 2011, 22:00:11
I have just shown my wife the picture and she says that it looks like Old Vic but thinks the name along the canopy is not what she remembers. She said that she remembers having to walk on the opposite side wheel to move the axle back,,sort of walking the wheel off, if that make sense. She was also in the local paper with this engine and was very annoyed with the reporter as he smeared her face with grease before he took a picture. What sixteen year old wants her face smeared with grease in a photo :) Thanks so much for your help, both of you, if she gets a photo from her mum I will put it on. SB.

Hi SB,

The name on the canopy board will be different.  It is common practice for engine owners to put their own name on boards... in this case Colin has his name up since he now owns the engine.  It would have been Vic Roberts in the 1970s.  My photo shows the engine in its current paint, with its new name and canopy boards. Pic was this year.  `Tis the same engine though...

SA.

Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: sheppey_bottles on July 27, 2011, 22:24:50
Cheryl said the name across the canopy side was the company name that Vic purchased the engine from. She said the engine was a lovely green colour but the sign was a horrid light blue? and did not match in at all. Once again thanks for your help...She has just been having a look through the photos but there are none of her with the engine :-( But we did find some lovely shots of the North Yorkshire moors railway near Grosmont where our friends live..the trains used to run straight passed there house near Egton bridge, what a lovely view and sound that was as they came up the valley near the Esk ( good for Salmon)..but thats another story and it aint Kent.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on July 27, 2011, 22:52:05
Hi,
   I have been reading up a bit more. I will have to start a new thread on Mr. Bray of Folkestone, a very interesting man. I should imagine that Bray and Aveling knew of, if not knew, each other. Bray started to use gears for the main drive before Aveling but only built or had built a few engines that would be recognised as such today. His second generation engines went to outside frames and stopped using the boiler as the main structural element of the vehicle. I think that there was a mutual exchange of ideas between almost all of these great men, Brunel and Robert Stephenson were great friends even though they differed on a lot of ideas (track gauge being one). Aveling's early engines were built by Clayton and Shuttleworth to their Patents but they used some of Aveling's patents for their own machines, mutual benefit to both companies. This could get complex, so on that note I will say that I soon will start a new thread on Mr. William Bray. Regards, Sentinel S4.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: unfairytale on July 27, 2011, 23:11:37
I read or was told that Thomas Aveling was at Broadmead Farm, Folkestone in 1858 when Bray tested his patented wheels, Bray also towed some heavy guns up Dover Hill.

Here's Bray's engine of 1858.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6017/5982306341_fb497659ef.jpg)
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on July 27, 2011, 23:31:16
That is William Bray on the footplate and his son at the steering position. Yes Thomas Aveling would have been at the trials. 
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: manokent on July 29, 2011, 11:44:29
I can well recall the A&P steam rollers in Kent. The drivers towed their accommodation wagon (as Fred Dibnah) whilst they worked the area so I got to know some of them well.
They had to frantically turn the wheel to turn the massive chain operated front rollers. lorries were restricted to max 20 mph at that time - i wonder what the max speed was for a roller?
In those days we had proper summers, hot with molten tar on the roads. They rolled the large yellow chippings into the tar - hence permanently scarred knees and tarry summer sandals - not good for marbles either.

I'm ok on steam engines but this internet thing!  If anyone is interested and will please help I will post a picture of grandad's A&P steam dray.(tried insert image paste etc but no luck)


Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: manokent on July 29, 2011, 12:59:29
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n553/werburgh/dray.jpg)

Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: DaveTheTrain on July 29, 2011, 19:39:01
Manokent,

Thanks very much for posting this, that is a fantastic photograph and extremely rare - Aveling wagons are like hens teeth.  Also, with the single head lamp on the chimney it is very unusual.   Do you know anything of the engine?  If not I can find out via road steam lads.

Thanks again, that is a rare find.

ShotA
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on July 29, 2011, 20:34:19
That is fantastic. That is the first photograph I have ever seen of an Aveling Wagon. As has been stated, a very rare beastie indeed. Thank you for posting it. Sentinel S4.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: manokent on July 30, 2011, 15:55:41
Sorry I can't tell you much more about the photo - if you can find out more that would be great.
All I know is that the Bridge Tavern is Church Street, Hoo and it took grandfather two days to get to Style & Winch brewery in Maidstone and back (which would have meant using the original Bluebell Hill)
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on September 16, 2011, 19:11:50
I have posted this in the Star Hill thread but it deserves to be here as well. This tale needs to be told. Many years ago I was told of a relative who got into some bother with a roller on Star Hill. For many years I thought, and believed, that it was my Gt.Gt. Grandfather. I was wrong. It was his brother Herbert (Herbie) who lived, mainly, in Gillingham. He died in 1945(ish) so there might be people around who remember him, if you think you do please PM me and we can have a chat. I have left a few of the more personal details out, my surname for one, as this was part of a much longer email from The Oracle. He has been filling in parts of my family history because, being almost 80, he wants me to know as much as possible.


Uncle Herbie and my mother’s father are furthest back people I met.

 Herbie was, I think, my grandfather's younger brother – but I could be wrong.   He lived in, I believe, Gillingham.   He appeared every so often.   He was of medium height, tending to be fat.   Had a shock of white hair, a heavy white mustache on a roundish face and blue, friendly, eyes.   Herbie was always good to me.   I remember him well because he ‘stopped appearing’ towards the end of the war by which time I was, of course quite a mature kid.   (Had I not seen someone’s head blown off etc, etc?)

Herbie had lead a charmed life. He had never married but was, obviously (looking back at him) a ‘ladies man’.  He was a steam fitter, having served his time with Aveling & Porter’s.  He moved around a lot working on such things as the construction of the Welsh Dams and Pembroke Dock.  But he was ‘in and out’ of Avelings for most of his life.  He worked for their long-term lease department.   Many county councils appeared to own a fleet of rollers.  In fact many councils only hired them (Kent actually owned their 30 plus rollers.   Herbie delivered new rollers to their bases (anywhere in the country) and brought ‘home’ those to be refurbished and sold on.   He thought nothing of roading a roller to, say Cornwall and bringing a well-worn one home.  Herbie had a roller run away on Star Hill, Rochester.  He had brought it from Brighton – Dad told me, years later, that its brakes were clapped out, the valve-gear sloppy and rattling and the steering about a turn and a half slack both ways.  Anyway, she got away from Herbie on Star Hill, but he stuck to her.   She was skidding and slewing on the tram lines and setts and two trams were closing on each other.  The driver of the ‘up’ car could see what the driver of the ‘down’ car could not see – a steam roller hauling a living van coming down the hill more or less sideways on at about 20mph.  He stopped his car and doubtlessly prayed.  Herbie’s roller overtook the ‘down’ car without touching it.  The roller passed through the ever-narrowing gap between the two trams, but the living van side-swiped the ‘up’ car which rocked violently and almost went over on its left side.  It recovered, but Herbie’s living van had taken most of the waist panels off its right side.  The living van was de-stablised by the collision and flipped over to explode in plum-coloured matchboarding, stove, bedding, food and clothes.   The tow-bar remained attached to the roller together with the frame and the four wheels.  This lot was going along on its side when Herbie reached the bottom of the hill.  Ahead of him was a Jeweller’s shop and a tight left or right.  Left into Rochester High Street or right, to Chatham.  As he was, in any case intending to go along Rochester High Street, over the Medway Bridge and thence to Aveling’s works, he decided to GO FOR IT.  The roller, astoundingly, took the corner.  The frame of the living van did not.  It side-swiped the shop which was not, obviously, built as well as the tram.  The front of the shop caved in and jewellery, clocks and watches exploded out into the street.  Herbie finally stopped the roller just in front of a tram that was heading for Star Hill.

No-one was seriously hurt.  The policeman on point-duty at the bottom of Star Hill sprained his ankle sprinting for safety.  Several people on the damaged tram were ‘over-excited’ and the jeweller was found filthy, angry and unhurt.  Herbie was done for dangerous (!!!!) driving, and fined.  Aveling’s did NOT pay the fine.  It was deemed as absolutely none of the Company’s business.


Now I believe that this was quite a heavy shunt for the time and would have been reported in the local paper(s). If anyone can add to this please do. The fact that no one was killed and the roller stayed on her feet is amazing. This could also belong in the Medway trams thread but posting this twice is pushing my luck as it is. Are there any pics extant of either the roller in the High Street or the damaged tram?

Thanks for your time, S4.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: chasg on September 17, 2011, 04:25:55
The fact that no one was killed and the roller stayed on her feet is amazing.

Some would say miraculous!
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on September 17, 2011, 09:08:50
Don't forget she was sliding on greasy wood sett covered with who knows what and steel rails, and the remains of her living van would have acted as an anchor. That said I think he was being looked after that day............
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: kyn on September 10, 2012, 17:57:34
A trip to the Essex County Show, thanks to those at the pumping station, and we came across this little display :)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/KHF2/IMG_0365_renamed_9099.jpg)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/KHF2/IMG_0367_renamed_22674.jpg)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/KHF2/IMG_0379_renamed_3895.jpg)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/KHF2/IMG_0369_renamed_15689.jpg)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/KHF2/IMG_0378_renamed_4770.jpg)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/KHF2/IMG_0377_renamed_15292.jpg)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/KHF2/IMG_0384_renamed_11687.jpg)
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: kyn on August 16, 2013, 22:04:39
A trip to the Science Museum in London resulted in seeing this:

Quote
Aveling and Porter Traction Engine, 1871

This is the oldest surviving traction engine to show all the features that became standard practice for the following 60 years.  It was designed by Thomas Aveling who was a pioneer in the application of steam power to ploughing, road haulage and driving agricultural machinery.

Traction engines were often used as a portable power source for various machines, driven by a long belt from the flywheel.  The engines would travel from farm to farm at harvest time, where they would drive a threshing machine (which separated the wheat from the chaff and stalks).  For many people, the traction engine was probably their first encounter with the ‘machine age’.  In Tess of the Urbervilles, published in 1891, Thomas Hardy described the harsh pace of the new machinery as Tess helped to feed corn into the threshing machine.  ”It was the ceaselessness of the work that tried her so severely….For Tess there was no respite; for, as the drum never stopped, the man who fed it could not stop, and she, who had to supply the man with untied sheaves, could not stop either.”

Traction engine were often used to haul heavy industrial equipment and also pulled ‘road trains’ consisting of several wagons, although their speed was slow – about 4 mph (6.5 km/h).  Aveling and Porter exported steam engines all over the world from their factory in Rochester, Kent.  The firm also pioneered the steam road-roller – really a traction engine with heavy rollers for wheels – and in this way steam literally ‘paved the way’ for the cat and the diesel truck.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: smiffy on April 06, 2017, 00:56:45
From the South Eastern Gazette, 2nd September 1862:


Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: smiffy on June 03, 2017, 16:02:03
Does anyone know if Aveling and Porter put this into production or was it just a one-off prototype?
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: conan on June 03, 2017, 20:21:15
It looks like they may have done, if you scan down this link to a highlighted bit there is a short sentence giving the price at £525.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JM-oCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=aveling+and+porter+perkins+diesels&source=bl&ots=KdVZoqdCzU&sig=k_ctxutvcogS2oGfxOCkI8Ol2Gk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr6KqMsKLUAhVmF8AKHX5jCTk4ChDoAQhSMAs#v=onepage&q=aveling%20and%20porter%20perkins%20diesels&f=false

there's clips of the trials on you tube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxVDtKXJrp4

Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: smiffy on June 03, 2017, 21:09:01
Looks like it was a bit too expensive despite the superior performance. Very interesting to see that Frank Perkins was an Aveling and Porter executive.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: conan on June 04, 2017, 00:10:07
Here's a potted history of Frank Perkins

https://www.perkins.com/en_GB/company/heritage/frank-perkins-story.html.html
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Leofwine on September 06, 2017, 21:48:56
Maidstone Telegraph - Saturday 11 March 1871

Aveling and Porter's Steam Road Rollers. -Messrs Aveling and Porter, of this city, having just completed the manufacture of some of their powerful steam road rollers for use in London, the machine was tested on Star-hill on Friday last. A great portion of Star-hill has recently been covered with stones to a depth of six inches, and notwithstanding that the roadway is a steep incline of 1 in 10 the steam roller kept ascending and descending the hill with the greatest of ease, until the surface of the road was rendered perfectly smooth. It would seem that not one of the public bodies in Rochester or Chatham has yet employed the steam road roller for the streets, although a promise was given by the commissioners of pavements that they would hire one of the steam rollers, providing one was purchased for the town of Maidstone. This the Local Board of Maidstone has done, but up to the present time the roller had not been once hired by the Commissioners, while the expence of the whole of the road rolling in this city has been borne by Messrs Aveling and Porter.

Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: conan on September 07, 2017, 00:10:21
I wonder which type it was? this first is dated 1867

(https://i.imgur.com/VxIaIpKl.jpg)

Whilst this is dated 1873

(https://i.imgur.com/oHwBxG8l.jpg)

Hopefuly Sentinal S4 or Dave the train can help :)
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Signals99 on September 07, 2017, 11:57:27
Hi just a point of family interest, my uncle  Bert Newman  served an apprenticeship with Aveling and Porter and worked for them all his working life, I think he ended  his days with them in some form of management position. As a lad my mother told me he was responsible for the idea and production of the scarification unit fitted to road rollers, any idea as to what a scarafication unit was or did ?
I never actually met the chap (family feud, that unfortunately lasted a life time) but would love to have information on him, or his work.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: 80sChild on September 07, 2017, 14:32:50
In case anyone interested I think there's an Aveling and Porter steam roller on display at the Brook Pumping Station in Chatham (next to the multi-story car park).
I remember going there a lot back in the 90's and you can still see it displayed in their courtyard.

Might be worth checking out for enthusiasts.  :)
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: MartinR on September 07, 2017, 21:18:00
The scarification unit would be the rod or rods you see at the back of a roller to scratch the surface.  It was used to break up a surface either prior to excavation, or to ensure a good "key" for a replacement surface.  For a modern take on the same task see http://www.bobcat.com/attachments/scarifier/features (http://www.bobcat.com/attachments/scarifier/features).
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: conan on September 08, 2017, 00:24:34
Here's one attached to an early oil engined A & P.The earlier ones would have been of similar appearance.The depth would have been adjusted using the wheel

(https://i.imgur.com/fKlYI0Wl.jpg)
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Dave Smith on September 08, 2017, 13:39:03
I'm intrigued by the "Crude" oil. Presumably this had a burner to heat the water to steam, which used 3500 sec "really thick" oil much the same as a lot of hospitals used for their boilers many years ago? As it was so thick, you had to have a heat trace on the pipes/tank to make it flow well enough for the " spinning cup" or? on the burner.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: conan on September 08, 2017, 14:18:56
Not sure but try page 9 of this link.It's not an A & P but the principle should be the same

http://beamishtransportonline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Ruston-Hornsby-Crude-Oil-Rollersopt.pdf
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: 80sChild on September 08, 2017, 14:50:46
Here's one attached to an early oil engined A & P.The earlier ones would have been of similar appearance.The depth would have been adjusted using the wheel

(https://i.imgur.com/fKlYI0Wl.jpg)

Now THAT is just like the one at the Brook Pumping station. Is the same kind of design, almost identical.  :)
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: grandarog on September 08, 2017, 18:08:11
Source Geograph ,Chris Whippett.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: MartinR on September 08, 2017, 18:12:42
The Ruston flyer makes it clear that it is a "Diesel" or "compression ignition" engine.  The old ones burnt nearly anything, it was only with the advent of modern diesels after WWII that they started to become fussy.  Petrol was much more expensive and was only used for starting.  My experience with starting something similar goes back to an old Fordson tractor used by the Kennet & Avon Trust in the 1970s.  You started hand cranking the cold engine with the petrol supply and spark plugs enabled.  Once it fired, you allowed it to run up to speed and temperature before switching over to Tractor Vaporising Oil (TVO) which was basically paraffin.  Once on TVO it was a pure diesel, no plugs required.

In the flyer it mentions starting the smallest rollers with a vaporiser.  This system was used on a lot of single cylinder diesels and consisted of a small chamber into which the fuel was injected.  The chamber was heated by a blow torch before starting to crank.  Once running the heats of prior combustion and of compression kept it hot enough.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: grandarog on September 08, 2017, 20:06:00
Martin .... :)   
           I don`t wish to be pedantic but I will call you out about Fordson Standard Tractors. The Petrol /TVO system was Not Diesel.
           The tractors had a very low compression ratio around 5 to 1 to suit the old low 95/98 octane petrol and even lower 50/55 octane TVO. 
           The tractor could not fire from cold on TVO, hence the need for a small tank of petrol for starting and running up to working temperature. (woe betide you if you forgot to switch over and ran out of petrol. Even when the engine was hot it would very rarely start on TVO. The spark plugs and ignition were still required to keep the engine running.
          There was no way enough compression for it to ever diesel.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: DaveTheTrain on September 08, 2017, 22:37:14
The Aveling at the Brook is a single cylinder.  It is started by lighting a so called fizzer, which essentially looks like a cigarette.  This is held in a special holder inserted into the end of the cylnder.  The engine is decompressed by lifting a handle and the flywheel spun over by an air start which is derived from air from a cylinder on the back of the engine.  It should start in a few spins. 

I had a similar one for  a few years before getting my steamer.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: MartinR on September 08, 2017, 22:41:55
grandarog ...

Without evidence I can only go on my memory, of 45+ years ago.  I was the cranker, not yet old enough to drive (officially), so it is possible I was either misinformed, or have misremembered.  I do remember it as a pig, it had a habit of kicking back on occasions, so you always had to stand carefully.  IIRC there were decompressors like a diesel and it was when the driver closed them it could kick back - or is my memory totally shot?  5:1 would not be enough to diesel, I agree.  However don't get hung up on octanes, they are only relevant when compressing the charge.  Inject at/near TDC removes any issue of pre-ignition, witness that older (absolutely NOT modern) diesel cars could apparently run on petrol or petrol/oil mixes.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on September 09, 2017, 14:17:36
The Scarafier (? spelling) was used for ripping up pre-tar Macadam roads. They would rip (Scarafy) the surface then roll it flat again to get the surface back and fill pot-holes. They can be adjusted for depth and are generally fitted to the back axle of the roller, (either side). Sadly when tarred surfaces came into being the norm they fell out of use.

S4.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: howard on September 09, 2017, 19:24:41
I know of a roller driver who, when the single drive pin fell out of the wheel while going down hill (thus disengaging the drive and rendering brakes and engine braking inoperative) dropped his scarifier to stop. it was early one morning and nobody was about so he found and replaced the pin, raised the scarifier, rolled the damaged surface and went on his way!
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: grandarog on September 09, 2017, 20:31:01
The Aveling at the Brook is a single cylinder.  It is started by lighting a so called fizzer, which essentially looks like a cigarette.  This is held in a special holder inserted into the end of the cylnder. 

Just the same as the old Single Cylinder Field Marshall`s. Supposed to fit a cartridge to start but they cost money, so a bit of rolled up rag lit and stuffed in the cartridge breech instead and 2 blokes to spin it up.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Dave Smith on September 10, 2017, 14:54:11
Thanks conan. It would appear that by " crude" they meant " not refined". i.e. " any old cheap oil you can get".
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: smiffy on September 13, 2017, 14:21:21
St Margaret's Street, Rochester c.1880:
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: DaveTheTrain on September 13, 2017, 15:28:20
That is a really early engine Smiffy. The clues are 1) external bobbin steering:  2) conical front rolls (as opposed to standard cylidrical rolls:.3) the really, really heavy headstock/forecarriage head over the top of the front roll and this is the bit I cannot fathom, I cannot see where the safety valves are located. 
DTT
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: conan on September 13, 2017, 23:53:48
Looks like a compound engine,would the safety valves be the vague things showing at the cylinder block end?
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: DaveTheTrain on September 14, 2017, 07:27:21
Looks like a compound engine,would the safety valves be the vague things showing at the cylinder block end?

You are right, I think.   It does look like it might be a compound when you zoom in.  I see your point about the vague things on the end of the cylinder.  I had thought they were displacement lubricators but happy to be corrected.  I wonder if the engine has early ramsbotham (I might have the spelling incorrect) safety valves and that they are just smaller, and therefore less visible.  An interesting pic nonetheless.  Perhaps smiffy has a better scan/resolution.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: smiffy on September 14, 2017, 13:45:53
This is the original size, but I'm not sure there is much improvement in the detail.

Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: conan on September 14, 2017, 14:12:03
Here's a clear view of what appears to be the same model of roller dated 1875

(https://i.imgur.com/1bocZosl.jpg)

From this website

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Aveling_and_Porter
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: howard on September 14, 2017, 18:44:40
Looks like Ramsbottom (spelling from Google!) valves with the springs just aft of the chimney.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: DaveTheTrain on September 14, 2017, 23:07:29
Looks like Ramsbottom (spelling from Google!) valves with the springs just aft of the chimney.

I think they are too.  And Conans lovely pic confirms it.  It also nicely dates the Rochester image which I guessed at 1880 or therabouts.

DTT
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: grandarog on September 15, 2017, 14:17:58
That detailed etching answers my question what the "thingy" on the boiler by the chimney was. Bracket for a running Lamp . :)
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on September 15, 2017, 19:30:15
Love these early Rollers. The thickness of the front rolls is just fantastic, a very long wheel base as well, and that massive heavy headstock. A pity none of these cone rollers has survived in original condition. I believe that there is a former cone roller rebuilt with cylindrical roll still around. I certainly have seen a bobbin steered roller in the 1990's at Sellindge. Fantastic pic. Thanks for posting .

S4.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Blakey on November 24, 2017, 19:36:12
The safety valves are "Salter Spring Balance" safety valves. The issue with these is that it is possible to "wind them down" and hence increase the pressure in the boiler / the point at which they lift - this was the cause of several boiler explosions during the early years. The standard design of Aveling Safety Valve had been developed by 1884 - these had the advantage of not being able to be adjusted in steam (you could make them "blow off" under lower pressure, but not increase the pressure) Salter Safety Valves were used on export engines (by many manufactureres, not just Avelings) due to their simplicity, however often they also had additional safety valve which was locked into position so again, couldn't be tampered with whilst in steam.

The roller with the "conical rolls" in the photo is definately a single cylinder. The last of these engines were built in the very early 1880's. The first compound Aveling was built in 1881, but they didn't go into production until 1886, by which time the "standard" design of front end of roller had been developed - parallel front rolls held in place with "forks". Compound Avelings at this period were called "overhead slide valve" engines. They are often erroneously refereed to as "Fowler type" but this is not the case, not wishing to get too technical but the difference is in the slide valves, on an Aveling they are flat (the valves sitting on a horizontal plane) whilst on a Fowler they are angled, at aprox 45 degrees.

Hope this is of interest.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on November 25, 2017, 01:42:55
Please don't worry about getting into the tech details, Blakey. Many of us can handle that! Some of us thrive on that (DTT and I for certain), two of us certainly know the difference between piston and slide valve, compound and simple and certainly two of us still have close workings with steam. Never worry about details...

Sentinel S4 (subtle hint in the name there....).
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Blakey on November 25, 2017, 19:58:35
Fair enough Sentinel - its just we all know Foden's were the more superior steam wagon makers...  didn't want to get too bogged down with technicalities !

How are those cross heads coming on mate?
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Sentinel S4 on November 25, 2017, 21:10:32
Thin ice Blakey, very thin ice there...... Fodens were only small traction engines with a trailer body bolted on. Enough of that.

Cross heads coming on well, thanks.

An interesting point is how small the hind rolls are. Today I was looking at an engine close up and being just over the 6 foot mark I can just see over the tops. However this engine, and the one drawn, seem not only to have thicker rolling surface but those rolls can not be much more than 5 foot. Yet the front rolls, coned or not, seem to be the size that we accept as normal for a roller (just thicker).

 S4.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: smiffy on January 25, 2018, 22:54:36
Advertisement from an Australian dealer.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: smiffy on January 26, 2018, 13:29:57
Does anyone know why Aveling & Porter always stated, even in their own advertising that they are located in Rochester - when in fact the business was actually in Strood?
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Mickleburgh on January 26, 2018, 16:18:06
Does anyone know why Aveling & Porter always stated, even in their own advertising that they are located in Rochester - when in fact the business was actually in Strood?


Simple answer is that potential customers, home and abroad, were more likely to recognise the location of Rochester than Strood and it sounded better. You still see the practice today, office space prices often depend on the prestige or otherwise of the postcode.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: filmer01 on January 26, 2018, 16:30:27
The postal address was surely Strood, Rochester, Kent, so why not go for the better known, more prestigious part of that.
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: Longpockets on January 26, 2018, 16:55:22
Rugby Cement used to market their works at Halling as Rochester upon Medway,

More recently Berkeley Homes actively refused to refer to their development in the redundant Holborough quarry as being any where near Snodland. It was and is referred to Holborough Lakes or ME6, they even went as far to promote it as being between Ebbsfleet and West Malling.

Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: smiffy on January 26, 2018, 21:04:30
Understandable really. I mean, who would want to be associated with them oiks what live in Strood?  :)
Title: Re: Aveling & Porter
Post by: MartinR on January 26, 2018, 22:16:01
Prior to 1860 Aveling was based in Rochester (24, High Street and 27, Edwards Yard) with a small foundry at the future Strood site.  He moved production to the one expandable site in 1860 and in 1862 formed a partnership with Porter.  Perhaps it is a hangover from that time?