Castles, Fortresses & Associated Works => Further Castles, Fortresses & Associated Works => Topic started by: kyn on May 02, 2010, 16:01:51

Title: Deal Castle
Post by: kyn on May 02, 2010, 16:01:51
We had a little visit to the castle today, here are some photo's with some information to come at a later date.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: ellenkate on May 02, 2010, 16:44:23

I like the peppermint green paint on first floor!  I am ashamed to say I have never been inside Deal Castle, though I live near.

Samuel Tavener, commander of Deal Castle:
During the Cromwellian period, Cromwell appointed Samuel Tavener to be commander of Deal Castle, and many of Samuel's children were born there.  Samuel sometime later relinquished this post, moved to Dover, where he kept a grocery business, and after hearing an early member of Dover Baptists speaking in the street, Samuel joined them and helped to establish their cause.
There are many local descendants of Samuel Tavener, including the Hornsby, Finnis, etc families of Deal etc.

Samuel TAVERNER Snr married  (Essex?)

their son Samuel TAVERNER Jnr      married 1649 (1)Ann GIBBS of Word/Worth
he was chr 22 June 1621                              she died 1665 aged 42,
at Romford, Essex                                        buried Upper Deal, Kent
died 1696 Dover,Kent                 married (2) Susannah HARRISON of Dover in 1665.  No issue.

Samuel and Ann had several sons, believed all born in Deal Castle

Descent goes down to.....
Thomas TAVERNOR of Deal   married at    Sholden  to Jane TOMLIN of Deal
                                 by Lic on Jan 1720-21

Thomas and Jane TAVENOR's daughter Priscilla TAVERNOR chr 23.5.1722 Deal  
         married John HORNSBY/HORNBY or HOMBY by Banns 23.5.1743

John and Priscilla HORNSBY had twin sons  
(chr.28.5.1750 Deal,   Tomlin HORNSBY and Thomas HORNSBY)

Thomas HORNSBY married Sara CRANBROOK (or CRAMBROOK) by Banns on 18.1.1774 at Deal      
                                                                    (witnesses: Wm TAVENER and
Wm NUNNS?)
their daughter Sara HORNSBY
(born 7/1784, chr 13.8.1784, died 7/1865) married John FINNIS of Deal Nov 1804.  
John and Sara FINNIS  had a large family, 10, and there are many descendants.


Samuel Tavener was buried in the baptist church part of the old St Martins burial ground in Dover, which was cleared for development and the historic memorials disappeared.  See Dover Society history scrapbook website under old St Martins Dover for a painting showing the Tavener graves.


Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: busyglen on May 03, 2010, 10:02:45
Great pictures!  I have been there a couple of times when we have visited Deal to go to the RM Concerts each year on the green.

As a small point of interest.  My mother was born and lived in Upper Deal and used to work as a Cook for a private house.  On one occasion, the lady of the house, lent my mother to the Castle so that she could help prepare food for a large function.

 
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: cliveh on July 07, 2010, 19:40:21
Some pics of the exterior from my visit today:

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg182/cliveinkent/Deal%20Castle%2007-07-2010/IMG_2461.jpg)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg182/cliveinkent/Deal%20Castle%2007-07-2010/IMG_2464.jpg)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg182/cliveinkent/Deal%20Castle%2007-07-2010/IMG_2442.jpg)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg182/cliveinkent/Deal%20Castle%2007-07-2010/IMG_2443.jpg)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg182/cliveinkent/Deal%20Castle%2007-07-2010/IMG_2447.jpg)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg182/cliveinkent/Deal%20Castle%2007-07-2010/IMG_2448.jpg)

cliveh
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: Captain James T Kirk on July 08, 2010, 14:20:28
What a wonderful collection of photographs! (Both this and the first set). I'm hoping to visit England next year and must see this.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: Alastair on January 20, 2011, 16:51:56
Marvellous photos, Clive H & Kyn. Iv'e been there several times, though not recently. All three castles - Deal Sandown and Walmer were built to a similar design, the Tudor Rose, using much of the stone from dissolved monasteries. Occasionally you can see an ecclesiastic-looking stone (you'll know when you see it) in amongst the others.
There was a building added for the Governor on the seaward side of the castle which spoilt it completely but fortunately it was bombed in the last war so the castle was rebuilt in its original state.
Liked the pic of the gun trained on the Queen's flats, John V.
Alastair
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: Stewie on January 20, 2011, 18:38:37
We visited both Deal and Walmer Castles last year with my father. Makes an interesting comparison going to the original design at Deal and then viewing the heavily modified Walmer castle.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: Andyb on January 21, 2011, 19:37:27
Here is a picture of the flooded moat I took in Jan 1975 when Deal badly flooded

Sorry for the quality

(http://i964.photobucket.com/albums/ae126/Willieekkers/Picture271.jpg)
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: cliveh on September 27, 2011, 08:50:15
Here's a postcard image of the castle dated 1904. Apologies for the poor quality which is down to the rather faded original.  You can just make out, on the seaward side the square towers of the Governor's Lodgings which was destroyed by German bombs in 1941.

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg182/cliveinkent/DealCastle1904.jpg)

cliveh
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: Riding With The Angels on October 13, 2011, 21:06:39
Marvellous photos, Clive H & Kyn. Iv'e been there several times, though not recently. All three castles - Deal Sandown and Walmer were built to a similar design, the Tudor Rose, using much of the stone from dissolved monasteries. Occasionally you can see an ecclesiastic-looking stone (you'll know when you see it) in amongst the others.
There was a building added for the Governor on the seaward side of the castle which spoilt it completely but fortunately it was bombed in the last war so the castle was rebuilt in its original state.
Liked the pic of the gun trained on the Queen's flats, John V.
Alastair

I heard this from the keyholder at East Langdon church when I visited there. Apparently Deal Castle has some stone heads from Langdon Abbey.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: Alastair on October 14, 2011, 15:15:17
On the left of the picture, above the battlements, is that the Naval Yard in the distance?

Alastair
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: cliveh on October 14, 2011, 15:52:41
'Fraid I can't say Alastair - perhaps someone else can help?

cliveh
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: JohnG on July 02, 2012, 22:03:31
I visited Deal Castle many years ago with one of the old DOE workmen. Up on the roof we looked at a brass plate which had a line marked across it with Walmer on one side and Deal on the other, the parish boundry went through the middle of the castle.  It turns out that all three castles were built on the parish boundries.  By doing this they avoided paying all the local taxes.  On the Walmer side of Deal Castle there used to be a foot bridge across the moat to the castle, you can see it in some of the old postcards.  The reason for this bridge was coal with its tax was cheaper to buy in Walmer than Deal, by using the bridge the coal did not enter Deal.
I was supprised to read a few years ago, in the local paper, that they had just discovered the bell in the cupola, I saw it years ago, it was not secrete.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: davpott on July 03, 2012, 00:00:07
I visited Deal Castle many years ago with one of the old DOE workmen. Up on the roof we looked at a brass plate which had a line marked across it with Walmer on one side and Deal on the other, the parish boundry went through the middle of the castle.  It turns out that all three castles were built on the parish boundries.  By doing this they avoided paying all the local taxes.  On the Walmer side of Deal Castle there used to be a foot bridge across the moat to the castle, you can see it in some of the old postcards.  The reason for this bridge was coal with its tax was cheaper to buy in Walmer than Deal, by using the bridge the coal did not enter Deal.
I was supprised to read a few years ago, in the local paper, that they had just discovered the bell in the cupola, I saw it years ago, it was not secrete.

Looking the Old Maps website the Deal castle story has some truth as most of it lies on the Walmer side of the boundary but Walmer castle is entirely in Walmer, likewise Camber castle is not built on a boundary. While its a nice story I doubt if Henry VIII's engineers worried too much about local taxes ( or assessments as they were known) when they sited the new defences.  Also as the local assessments were based on land value I doubt, if they paid at all, they would be valued at very much.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: Dadredge on July 03, 2012, 08:48:16
Isn't it possible the parish boundaries were established after the castles were built? Especially as the Walmer NE boundary is a un-naturally tight triangle with the castle at one point.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: JohnG on July 03, 2012, 12:22:03
I always thought Camber Castle was near Rye.  Maybe the boundries has moved over the years.  You can just see the end of the footbridge in the old postcard a few post earlier, it is on the righthand edge.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: davpott on July 03, 2012, 14:54:01
I always thought Camber Castle was near Rye.  Maybe the boundries has moved over the years.  You can just see the end of the footbridge in the old postcacd a few post earlier, it is on the righthand edge.

You're right, I was just using it as was built at the same time as the other castles and easy to locate on old maps.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: JohnG on July 03, 2012, 15:09:14
Davpot.  What date maps were you looking at?  You should have looked at Sandown Castle.  Deal Castle on the boundry of Walmer and Deal.  Sandown Castle on the boundry of Shoulden and Deal and Walmer Castle on the boundry of Deal and Kingsdown.  I am happy to be corrected by the experts.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: davpott on July 03, 2012, 15:26:54
I've got the 1816 OS but it hasn't got boundaries maked on it. The earliest I can find on line is 1872 (for some reason I can still get into edina map site). The maps that need consulting are the tithe maps which local libraries should hold both digital and hard copies of.

Looking at the early maps I doubt if the boundary was changed when they messed around with some parishes about the 1860s. It clearly follows a road and beyond that a hedge line. If the line is projected on through the castle it would have hit the old MHWL at about the point where it now makes a dog leg towards the sea.

None of the other castles including Chamber are anywhere near a parish boundary.

One final thought as I am in a rush. These Castles belong to the crown so they wouldn't have been liable to local rates. 
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: JohnG on July 03, 2012, 15:47:54
I have seen the boundry plate on Deal Castle and was told about Walmer Castle and Sandown Castle.  This came from a DOE worker, later to become English Heritage.  Remember the Castles were built by Henry VIII, 1560's.  I could mention other things I learnt about the castles from this gentleman, very interesting but I will keep them to myself, that way there are no disputes.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: JohnG on July 03, 2012, 15:51:59
There was mention of Camber Castle, this is near Rye or it was last time I saw it.  Now we have Chamber Castle, I do not know where this one is.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: Sentinel S4 on July 03, 2012, 17:45:11
I thought that Camber Castle was between Rye and Winchelsea. Probably wrong as normal. You can see it from the road, A249, in either direction.

S4.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: davpott on July 03, 2012, 21:15:43
I thought that Camber Castle was between Rye and Winchelsea. Probably wrong as normal. You can see it from the road, A249, in either direction.

S4.

That's the Camber castle I cited. I'm sorry it is just over the border and in Sussex  :) I just used it as an example in an
 attempt to demonstrate my argument that Henry VIII’s engineers sited the castles for strategic reasons rather than to save paying local taxes.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: davpott on July 03, 2012, 21:59:21
There was mention of Camber Castle, this is near Rye or it was last time I saw it.  Now we have Chamber Castle, I do not know where this one is.

Sorry as I posted at the time I was in a rush. I meant Camber castle.

I have seen the boundry plate on Deal Castle and was told about Walmer Castle and Sandown Castle.  This came from a DOE worker, later to become English Heritage.  Remember the Castles were built by Henry VIII, 1560's.  I could mention other things I learnt about the castles from this gentleman, very interesting but I will keep them to myself, that way there are no disputes.

I don't doubt the plates at Deal castle, nor what you were told nor the sincerity of the person who told you. But I suspect they were probably only passing on in good faith what they had been told or picked up from local folk lore.

My argument is that the facts from maps that are easily available is that it is an unlikely theory. Parish boundaries were literally ‘set in stone’ in many cases or at least by an ancient pollard tree, road or hedge from their formation, which in most cases date prior to the Norman invasion. They then didn’t alter until the huge population changes the Victorians faced about 1850s. A study of the tithe maps which date 1830ish (depending on parish), but before the simplifying of some parishes carried out around 1860 will prove the point either way.
 
I am not disputing, just questioning…..that is what a good historian does. He may well be proved right in this case.  Notwithstanding my doubt on this ‘story’ please post more as I sure there is much which you were told where the man was a true expert.   :)
.
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: cliveh on November 11, 2012, 16:19:34
Aerial view 1927:


cliveh
Title: Re: Deal Castle
Post by: kyn on July 16, 2016, 23:36:08
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9499.jpg) (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/batgirlphotos/media/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9499.jpg.html)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9508.jpg) (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/batgirlphotos/media/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9508.jpg.html)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9509.jpg) (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/batgirlphotos/media/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9509.jpg.html)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9511.jpg) (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/batgirlphotos/media/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9511.jpg.html)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9530.jpg) (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/batgirlphotos/media/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9530.jpg.html)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9529.jpg) (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/batgirlphotos/media/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9529.jpg.html)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9526.jpg) (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/batgirlphotos/media/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9526.jpg.html)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9527.jpg) (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/batgirlphotos/media/batgirlphotos085/IMG_9527.jpg.html)