Kent History Forum

Day to Day => Towns & Villages => Topic started by: Leofwine on June 06, 2010, 22:52:30

Title: Brompton
Post by: Leofwine on June 06, 2010, 22:52:30
As some of you may have seen in my introduction here, I'm doing some research into the history of Brompton.  The first useful output of this is a flickr stream I've put together called "Brompton: Then and Now."   In this I have taken old photographs (1970 and earlier) of Brompton, then new photographs (taken this week) from as close as possible to the position the original was taken from.  Each photo is annotated with what info I have about it, and hopefully the stream will lead to more people volunteering information.  Please feel free to look at it and comment on it, and if you ever need to link a photo here for any reason, feel free.

Some of the old photos have been seen on the forums before, others haven't. (And I must say the forums have been helpful to me in getting information for alot of the picture descriptions, so thanks to everyone who has posted Brompton info here!)

The stream is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/22124479@N03/sets/72157624087225321/

And if anyone has any old photographs or maps of Brompton that I don't have, I would love to see them (and if possible add them at some point).  And any other feedback would be appreciated too.

Hopefully the stuff I'm researching will end up on the Brompton Village website in the history section.  I'll post links to the articles as they appear.

PS Whilst I was out getting the 'now' photos I took plenty of others too.  I will be sorting them out over the next couple of weeks and will post them too, so expect old buildings, air-raid shelters, pics of what is left of Holy Trinity School, etc soon
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Drunken Baker on June 29, 2010, 01:28:18
As some of you may have seen in my introduction here, I'm doing some research into the history of Brompton.  The first useful output of this is a flickr stream I've put together called "Brompton: Then and Now."   In this I have taken old photographs (1970 and earlier) of Brompton, then new photographs (taken this week) from as close as possible to the position the original was taken from.  Each photo is annotated with what info I have about it, and hopefully the stream will lead to more people volunteering information.  Please feel
free to look at it and comment on it, and if you ever need to link a photo here for any reason, feel free.

Some of the old photos have been seen on the forums before, others haven't. (And I must say the forums have been helpful to me in getting information for alot of the picture descriptions, so thanks to everyone who has posted Brompton info here!)

The stream is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/22124479@N03/sets/72157624087225321/

And if anyone has any old photographs or maps of Brompton that I don't have, I would love to see them (and if possible add them at some point).  And any other feedback would be appreciated too.

Hopefully the stuff I'm researching will end up on the Brompton Village website in the history section.  I'll post links to the articles as they appear.

PS Whilst I was out getting the 'now' photos I took plenty of others too.  I will be sorting them out over the next couple of weeks and wil
l post them too, so expect old buildings, air-raid shelters, pics of what is left of Holy Trinity School, etc soon

Have you looked at the old Brompton tenancy records held in Gillingham library (and possibly on CityArk)?
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Leofwine on June 29, 2010, 17:28:04
Have you looked at the old Brompton tenancy records held in Gillingham library (and possibly on CityArk)?

I've looked at census records for several years, but not the tenancy records.  I'll have to look into that.  Any idea how far back they go?

Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Drunken Baker on June 29, 2010, 18:09:27
Have you looked at the old Brompton tenancy records held in Gillingham library (and possibly on CityArk)?

I've looked at census records for several years, but not the tenancy records.  I'll have to look into that.  Any idea how far back they go?

Thanks for the info.

I can't remember exactly how far back they go, as I was looking for stuff specifically about my ancestors and looked at this microfiche to rule it out as opposed to expecting to find much of interest to me on it.

If you can visit Gillingham library, ask upstairs about the microfiche for Westcourt Rentals (I think that's what it was called).
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: sheppey_bottles on July 11, 2010, 12:27:36
An old souvenir mug from Old brompton.. When troops were posted far away from family and girlfriends etc they quite often took or sent home a souvenir of where they were staying, i am sure that this is what the mug is. Sometimes souvenirs were decorated with tiny forget me not flowers which were normaly sent to the wife or girlfriend.

(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l218/Sheppey_bottles_John/dun_gor2opt.jpg)
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Leofwine on July 11, 2010, 13:57:28
Any idea what the date of that is SB?

From looking for old Photos of Brompton I'm coming to the conclusion that the Gordon Statue vies with the Crimean/South African Memorial arches for the most photographed/painted part of Brompton (and outside the Barracks the King George V pub probably takes the prize!)
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: sheppey_bottles on July 11, 2010, 15:23:12
Very hard to date but bottom is marked made in germany so very very  late 1800's/1900 but pre 1st World war.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Happychap on July 17, 2010, 01:58:09
I hope someone will be able to help me here, there is a road that leads into flaxsman court from manor street and a sawyers alley off it, there was a social club on that road untill the late 70s or the early 80s, i can always remember doing a very good drawing of it when i was very young, but cannot remember what it was called and its been racking my brains for the last few years :)
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: bromptonboy on July 17, 2010, 12:24:39
The club was originally built as a Catholic School under the auspices of the Catholic Church in Manor Street. I think both used the name St Paulinus. When the school closed it became the Medway Irish Club until closure and demolition. As a busy garrison area Brompton had a large Irish Catholic population.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: kyn on October 12, 2010, 11:30:46
1958
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/KHF/Reservoir.jpg)
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: bromptonboy on October 12, 2010, 11:44:31
Crikey Kyn, that picture brings back some memories! I must sit down with you one day and point out what I can recall on it!
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Leofwine on October 12, 2010, 16:09:25
Crikey Kyn, that picture brings back some memories! I must sit down with you one day and point out what I can recall on it!

Point it out to me too Bromptonboy so I can get more on the history section of the Bromton village website!

And thanks for putting up the pic kyn
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Leofwine on October 12, 2010, 16:36:17
Studying that pic more closely I see a lot of very interesting features. The old Artillery Drill hall at the top left of the pic, just beside Holy Trinity Church. The Wesleyan Garrison Church at the top of Prospect Row next to the Admiralty Cutting Factory (?) and the Garrison Church over on the right.  Between the end of Prospect Row and the Garrison Church is that the Garrison Hospital?  I'm also amazed to see how complete Queen's Court (Cannon Alley) was in 1959, and the Officers' Terrace on Brompton Hill.

The reservoire and the drying lawns of the Marine Barracks are also good to see. Loads of good stuff in that photo, I shall be studying it for many hours I think!

A picture looking along Garden Street from the bottom of Prospect Row (top left part of Kyn's photo)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4675592977_7593164b18_b.jpg)

1866 OS Map of Prospect Row/Garden Street (top left area of Kyn's photo) for Comparision. Seems very little changed in those 100 years!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5075606492_9102229026_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: smiffy on July 25, 2011, 13:42:53

Does anyone know how Brompton was pronounced in those days? Perhaps Brunton was the way locals referred to it and this was heard and written down by the author of the report. A bit like Rome Lane being called Room Lane. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Leofwine on July 25, 2011, 16:45:19
Eighteenth century maps, prospects, etc show Brompton spelled with several variations, including Brumpton, Bromton, & Brumton, so it is not impossible Brunton is another variation.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: smiffy on July 25, 2011, 18:01:44

Asking for directions in those days would have been an interesting experience for a non-local  :)
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: bromptonboy on July 26, 2011, 10:09:17
Brampton is another version recorded. In the publication entitled "Historical record of the Royal Sherwood Foresters, or Nottinghamshire regiment of militia" it is stated that 'In the summer of 1782, the detachments of the Nottinghamshire Militia were called together, and the whole regiment was encamped on Brampton Common, in Kent. Here, the principal duty of the regiment was to mount guard over the stores and batteries in the neighbouring garrison of Chatham.

It would be easy to assume that the 'Brampton Common' referred to is what we now call the Great Lines, but I have a thought that it might refer to the area of ground that was just north of Brompton and eventually occupied by Brompton Barracks, or, to the area of grassland now known as the Inner Lines.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Leofwine on July 26, 2011, 13:09:21
In the 18th century the area where Brompton Barracks now stands was woodland known as Brompton Wood. This woodland does seem to have been gradually felled throughout the century, but I don't think it would have been called Brompton Common. The two most likely candidates to my mind are either the Great lines, or Brompton Hill across to Amherst Hill. The latter appears in many images of the period and seems to have been used for grazing livestock and social gatherings, typically features of common land.  Some of this land became Chatham Barracks, but most remained un-built on until the first half of the 19th century. The Great Lines served similar purposes, but I suspect that in a military document this area would have been named by its military name (Lines or field of fire or something similar).
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: smiffy on January 02, 2017, 15:10:12
Spotted this piece of graffiti on the front of 22 Garden Street the other day. It's in plain sight but I've never noticed it before.

Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: conan on January 02, 2017, 19:44:29
1745 is the date of the Jacobite rebellion, I wonder whether LP fought against the Scots and was commemorating the fact.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: CAT on January 02, 2017, 22:17:39
Fantastic find these little treasures,  however it must be ascertained whether the date is contemporary with the brick (inscribed on the brick when it was unfired then used in a wall constructed in 1745), inscribed on the brick after it was fired and used in a wall predating the date or an inscribed earlier date on a later wall? The matter can become more confused if an earlier inscribed brick is reused in a later constructed wall? Is there any other method of confirming the wall predates the inscription?

Inscriptions are fantastic things, but can present a multitude of pitfalls.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: smiffy on January 02, 2017, 23:43:00
I know that this building is pretty old, but I am uncertain as to the date of construction. There are some other people on the forum that are very knowledgeable regarding Brompton history that might well be able to throw a bit of light on this.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: CAT on January 04, 2017, 18:40:40
Having looked at the front of 22-24 Garden Street on GSV certainly shows that the building, which despite being a very symmetrical facade, would conform to the architecture of the first half of the eighteenth-century. Despite its facade, it is two separate dwellings either side of an axial passageway aligned perpendicular with the road leading to the rear gardens. Each property should be entered from a doorway part-way along the passage providing access to the centre of the house, with one room to the front and one to the rear. Each property may have had a further small scullery room to the rear, but often not. Above each main room would be a corresponding pair of bedrooms, all in all forming a typical two up, two down. However, as the early origins to Brompton was as a proper laid out town for the better classes, this simple house design was placed behind a grander facade, maintaining a sense of opulence.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Leofwine on January 11, 2017, 15:42:14
This pair of buildings were a pair of four buildings forming a small terrace here, all of which were scheduled for compulsory purchase and demolition in the 50s, since they were "unfit for human habitation."  This was the fate of most of Brompton at this time. Fortunately the owner's resisted and took it to national rather than local level, and the buildings were scheduled rather than demolished. Sadly the owners of the neighbouring pair didn't so they were demolished and replaced with the ugly 1950s/60s flats that now stand in their place.

In terms of the age of the building, that part of Garden Street appears to have been built between about 1730 and 1750, so that ties in with the date on the brick. Unfortunately it doesn't help with establishing if the graffiti was done once the building was erected, or when the brick was manufactured. (Of course answering that could help date the building more closely!)
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: Leofwine on January 11, 2017, 15:50:17
On a longshot I did consult my list of 18th century Brompton Residents, but sadly there are none with the initials "L.P." but that is not surprising as I only have 400 or so names on the list at present, and many thousands of people must have lived in Brompton during the course of the 18th century as this was the period of Brompton's foundation and growth.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: smiffy on January 11, 2017, 17:15:07
Looking at the original there is some question as to whether it says " L P" or that it may be actually be "I P". By the way, looking at an old map there seems to have been an identical pair of buildings exactly opposite, also long demolished.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: davpott on February 27, 2017, 21:28:59
On a longshot I did consult my list of 18th century Brompton Residents, but sadly there are none with the initials "L.P." but that is not surprising as I only have 400 or so names on the list at present, and many thousands of people must have lived in Brompton during the course of the 18th century as this was the period of Brompton's foundation and growth.

In latin J and I are interchangeable. so it could be J.P.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: CAT on February 27, 2017, 21:39:47
Not just latin, J and I were regarded as the same interchangeable letters well into the end of the eighteenth-century.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: smiffy on March 16, 2017, 22:57:31
A little bit of additional information. The Listed Building designation states that the building is dated to 1745 by the owner.
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: bromptonboy on March 17, 2017, 17:23:24
Hmmm. Has the owner taken the carved date as their evidence or do they have information from deeds?
Title: Re: Brompton
Post by: smiffy on March 17, 2017, 17:50:34
That's all that's stated - Grade II listed building, main construction periods 1745 to 1745. Wouldn't the construction date be on the deeds?