Emergency Services => Fire Services => Topic started by: kyn on August 30, 2010, 15:47:44

Title: Old Engines
Post by: kyn on August 30, 2010, 15:47:44
This one is parked up in a coach company parking area
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/batgirlphotos/KHF/IMG_6260Small.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on September 01, 2010, 15:30:21
Hi Kyn.

Can you tell me whereabouts this is parked please? :)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: kyn on September 01, 2010, 16:21:57
It is parked in a industrial area on Dorset Road, off New Road in Sheerness, we viewed it from the other side of The Fleet here:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.430772,0.752247&spn=0.001458,0.005429&t=h&z=18
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on September 01, 2010, 17:51:17
Thanks Kyn. :)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: kyn on September 20, 2010, 10:03:22
Had a walk back down this way yesterday and the engine has now gone....

Anythng to do with you afsrochester?  ;-)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on September 20, 2010, 16:48:32
Nothing to do with me Kyn, although I wouldn't have said No to it!  :) :) :)

This is my "Fire Engine"; A Shand Mason Hosecart dating from the late 1880's.

(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/premierdrums/Picture009.jpg?t=1284997565)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: kyn on September 20, 2010, 17:17:28
 :) Thought I best check, I didn't think your garden would be big enough.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Leofwine on September 20, 2010, 17:24:55
Nice cart afsrochester, how long was it in use? (And how many 'leg-power' is it?)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: grandarog on September 20, 2010, 18:56:49
Thats a great restoration on your cart ,its lovely to see the  restorations to save more everyday used  items rather than the big expensive Engines etc.Was it all your work if so well done you can be proud. I cant work out how the extension ladder worked ,the slider slots confuse me.LOL. Does one section just fit on end of another and not slide like a modern one.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on September 21, 2010, 10:38:53
Hi All. :)

The sad thing is, that very little is known about it. Apparently, it was used at a Stately Home in Hertfordshire at some point in time, but whereabouts, I've been unable to find out. It's very difficult, say nigh on impossible, to trace the history of a hosecart unless it has the name/crest of the town/village on it.

It was found in a barn, (not known where) in a very poor condition several years ago. A previous owner, at some stage, had just begun to restore it, but lost interest. The owner, prior to me, continued with the restoration, until he became very ill and was unable to carry on. I purchased it 8 years ago with about 1/3 of the work done, and gradually completed the job over the following 18 months.

Leofwine; I don't know when it was last "operational" but hosecarts lasted in Works Fire Brigades well into the '60's, and it has been in preservation for 20+ years to my knowledge.  As for Leg power, it was as many as you could get! It weighs nearly a 3/4 ton so it wouldn't have been much fun going up a steep hill with only a couple of blokes pulling it!!

grandarog; Spot on! It's a slot-together scaling ladder, built to the specifications of Sir Eyre Massey-Shaw, the Chief Officer of the Metropolitian (later London) Fire Brigade and was designed to gain access over walls, fences,etc. The head of the ladder was painted white to aid visibility in thick smoke.

Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Paul on September 21, 2010, 11:33:18
There is nomally a number engraved into the wood somwhere.
Or the wheel makers name is normally on them with a date.
The wheels could have been changed at some point though..
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on September 21, 2010, 14:15:28
Thanks very much for that info, Paul. :)

I don't recall seeing any letters or numbers during restoration, but I will go over it thoroughly at the weekend.
 
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 10, 2010, 10:16:11
This is Rochester's first motorised appliance just after the Brigade taking delivery of it, in June 1916. It is an Aster/Merryweather Pump Escape. It later became known as "The Colonel." It was replaced in 1941 by a Leyland F5T2 Pump Escape, but continued in service throughout the war in Rochester. It ended its life as a static pump for an EWS near Acorn Wharf by Rochester Bridge. Photo courtesy of KFRS Museum.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/premierdrums/th_rvfbpeam.jpg?t=1286701477)

Sorry, I messed up on re-sizing the photograph. Here is the correct one below.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 10, 2010, 13:13:43
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/premierdrums/rvfbpeam.jpg?t=1286712435)
A few more details/specs of the vehicle.
Regd' 17.6.16, 50hp, 12mph, red, 4t 3cwt 2qr, BAW 6t 0cwt 0qr, FAW 3t 0cwt 0qr, BW 2ft 10in, 8in twin rubber, FW 2ft 10in, 4in single rubber. These solid tyres were replaced with pnematic ones in the late 20's/early30's. The ladder is a 50ft Merryweather wheeled escape, weighing nearly a ton. She was sold out of service by the NFS in September 1947.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: ellenkate on October 10, 2010, 16:08:00

Dover Fire Brigade  horse-drawn appliance, photo by Charles Harris.
Is there a date above the wheels?   1889?  1899?

(http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz93/ellenkate1/miscellaneous/Horse-drawnfireengineCHarrisNik.jpg)

Ellenkate
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 10, 2010, 18:45:08
I think it's 1899, ellenkate. :)

 Extract from "To Fire Committed" The History of Fire Fighting in Kent by Harry Klopper published 1984.

"Comparatively little is known about fire-fighting activities in the important town and port of Dover. Although the town had one of the earliest fire engines in Kent, presented by the Mayor in 1700, records are few about activities in the next 200 years. That such an important port should have been left unprotected is obviously inconceivable, and one must surmise that records were either lost or are buried in some archive. It is most likely that over the years, Dover went through a similar process to other towns of having a volunteer brigade, manuals and steamers. By the begining of the 20th Century, the brigade was under police control, a fact documented in the minutes of the town council on October 2nd 1907, following a big fire in the town the month before."
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: unfairytale on October 10, 2010, 20:10:55
Another Dover engine.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2713/4414680115_ca65fbe142.jpg)

And one from a bit later...1940.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3416/4638891821_488ecdae95.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: DoverDan on October 10, 2010, 22:38:18
The 1938 Merryweather Turntable Escape Ladder of Folkestone Fire Brigade. This photo was taken in 1944, and the engine EKB 395 was still in use until 1957.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5069257862_43e0997d2d_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: LenP on October 10, 2010, 23:20:55
Ok, I know it's not Kent, but I thought this might be of interest.
Littlehampton Fire Brigade headed letter, dated around 1900.

(http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss251/Lens35/scan0001.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 11, 2010, 06:48:04
Very nice indeed LenP.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Jimbo on October 28, 2010, 17:37:51
This may be of interest.
http://www.kent.fire-uk.org/pdf/kfrs_history_roll-honour.pdf (http://www.kent.fire-uk.org/pdf/kfrs_history_roll-honour.pdf)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 29, 2010, 08:34:12
The Trumpton Fire Engine is currently available as a "musical" limited edition at around ?80 (if you can find one, that is!!) :) :)
(edit)
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/premierdrums/bromley.jpg?t=1293371328)

The Bromley Steamer at Rochester Cathedral in December 1997 for Kent Fire Brigade's annual Christmas Carol Concert.

Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 08, 2011, 09:21:54
Ex-Dartford Borough Council's Leyland FT4A Pump Escape. New in 1939 it has an 8.8 litre petrol engine and a 700gpm Gwynne pump. It has a 40 gallon water tank. The laddder is a 50ft Merryweather.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/premierdrums/DartfordsPE.jpg?t=1318061872)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: gatsovandel on October 08, 2011, 14:42:53
Now,their used to be a old fire engine parked up what is now auto trend motor services 128 beacon road. Reading this post reminded me of it! and i only just realised it's no longer there? i wander when it was removed and what happen to it? any one else remember the fire engine?
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 20, 2011, 12:21:13
Hi Gatsovandal :)

I have to admit that I was unaware of it being there. How long ago are we talking about? There was a West Midlands Dennis SS131 up for sale on one of the car dealerships forecourts in the Brook 3/4 years back, maybe even a bit longer ago. I wonder if it might have been the same appliance? Quite a few Motor Dealers and Industrial Works/Factories purchased ex-brigade machines for various duties eg; washing vehicles and washing out premises/dust suppression/dry riser testing or indeed their own works brigade. Kemsley Paper Mills, Reeds at Maidstone, Shell Research Labs and CAV all had or have their own Brigades, and of course, anoraks like me and my Son have their own as well!!!  :) :) :)

Here's ours that we've bought as part of a consortium who will be restoring it. An Austin K4 Escape Carrier from 1943. One of only 2 known surviving in this configuration.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/premierdrums/IMG_0352.jpg?t=1318061221)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Sentinel S4 on October 20, 2011, 16:05:46
Not too much to do on her then............. I noyice the string on the front, are you pulling or being pulled? S4.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 20, 2011, 19:39:18
Hi Sentinel S4 :)

No, fortunately not too much to do although there is quite a bit of the bodywork that needs replacing/repairing. We reckon about 6-8 months work should see her ready for next years show and event season. All the mechanics are sound and were completed by the previous owner, who very sadly died earlier this year. It was his wish that she be restored to her former glory, and that is what we will do. The only thing that is beyond help is the Bayley escape ladder, but we do have some replacements lined up luckily. She is seen here being "pulled" into her new home! I hope that the restoration works will be able to be followed via our website wwiifire.co.uk once we get started. She appeared in an episode of the TV programme "Foyle's War."
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Sentinel S4 on October 20, 2011, 20:13:19
Has she got that wonderful whine from the rear end? That was a trade mark of all these machines, according to The Oracle. I have a real question for you; At St Augustine's Hospital they had their own internal fire fighters and engine pump, does it still exist in preservation? If so where could I see it as I remember it but cannot visualise it. Our next door neighbour was the Senior man in charge (don't know the right terminology here) and I remember his brass helmet with the County insignia on an enamel plate fixed to the front. Damn thing was heavy for a ten year old to pick up... S4.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 20, 2011, 20:26:22
S4 :)

Whereabouts was/is St Augustine's Hospital?
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Sentinel S4 on October 20, 2011, 21:30:35
Chartham nr Canterbury. It used to be the county asylum and is now a huge housing estate.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 20, 2011, 22:06:10
Phew! Now you're asking! :) Unfortunately, the museum at Brigade HQ has closed so that avenue of investigation has been thwarted. Maybe the East Kent Archives might be able to help you regarding photographs. I'll make some enquiries for you through some of my contacts and see what I can turn up. You never know........

PS. That brass helmet that you held as a lad weighed about 2lbs+ and if still in existense would, today, probally be worth about 500+ depending on its condition.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 21, 2011, 19:04:53
Sentinel S4 :)

Update. There is a photograph in existence of the Hospital Brigade, but alas, no access to it. Further enquiries are ongoing.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Sentinel S4 on October 21, 2011, 19:24:45
This might help, Jim Egan was the last boss of the internal fire service at the Hospital.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 21, 2011, 20:36:48
S4 :)

OK, Thanks.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: jervis bay on October 22, 2011, 08:28:58
Last year we purchased a 1962 Commer walktrhu ex NCB mines rescue unit from a chap that lives near Nottingham,he used it for towing his collection of AFS trailers, when not in use for towing his 18ft steam launch, the reason he sold it was to fund the purchace of an ex AFS Austin K2, he does the reenactment thing oop north, I`m trying to persuade him to bring some of his machines to War and Peace...
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on October 22, 2011, 08:47:31
It is hoped that our group will be attending the War and Peace Show this year with an Austin K2 ATV and a variety of Trailer pumps, Dennis, Coventry Climax Scammel, plus hopefully if it's finished, our Austin K4 Escape Carrier. The scenario will be a mobile NFS Workshop.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: alfie68 on November 08, 2011, 09:36:24
(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af168/alfie68_photo/Khf/StrikeWilliam-atthebackofenginephoto.jpg)

The Colonal, outside St Nicholas Church Strood, I believe. Can anyone help with dating it, Thanks
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Sentinel S4 on November 08, 2011, 15:46:12
Could this be for a celebration of some sort? Looking at the young girl on the left and the woman on the right they are both showing a lot of leg, that means post WW1. There is also a white line in the middle of the road, when did they start to appear? I think you are looking at the late 1920's or early 30's. Look for a celebration or a funeral or even a Christmas/New Year parade as it is in the depths of Winter going by the trees. I hope that helps (a bit). S4.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Mike S on November 08, 2011, 16:29:40
Was it for a Wedding, there seems to be white ribbons from the Radiator cap going up towards the ladders.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: alfie68 on November 08, 2011, 22:15:44
Hi,

Thanks for the tips for dating, would never have given the white lines in the road a second thought.  It's a family photo, so will have to go back & see who married around this time. :)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: alfie68 on November 08, 2011, 22:44:34
Hi,

White lines first appeared in 1918, use grew during the 1920's, in 1926 official guidelines where issued on how and where to use, courtsey of wiki.  :)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Sentinel S4 on November 09, 2011, 10:17:48
I have looked closer and think that, due to the womans dress style (almost above the knee 'Flapper' style) and hat, we are looking between 1923 and 1930. After about 1930 skirts tended to get longer until WW2 when they got a little shorter again. S4.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: alfie68 on November 09, 2011, 10:36:09
Hi,

Thanks S4, did you notice the wheelchair, at the back of the engine.  This has really made me look at the picture in a completely different way.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Sentinel S4 on November 09, 2011, 12:57:01
Well spotted. I thought it was a push chair. A very young Polio victim? S4.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: alfie68 on November 09, 2011, 20:31:04
Hadn't thought about the cause, would that have been common then?
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Sentinel S4 on November 09, 2011, 20:36:56
We are getting off thread. So I am drawing a line under this communication. To go further please PM me. Suffice to say I think that the photo was taken between the dates I have stated. S4.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on February 07, 2012, 16:18:57
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/premierdrums/dennisdCAV.jpg)

Ex- Hampshire Fire Service Dennis D now CAV's Works Brigade's pump at Courteney Road Gillingham.

Since this photograph was taken, the blue rotating beacons on top of the cab have been replaced by a bar-light.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: smiler on October 26, 2012, 16:27:30
(http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af310/smiler2/Images%20for%20Kent%20forum/scan0002-7.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: Far away on November 06, 2012, 12:21:22
Rochester's 'The Colonel' appears to have started off with solid tyres on wooden spoked wheels all round in 1916, then evolved to solid tyres on steel disc wheels at the rear, and later to pneumatic tyres on steel wheels at the front - judging by the pictures I have seen on this forum. Did it end up with pneumatic tyres all round?
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on February 18, 2013, 10:27:42
Far away :)

Yes it did. The conversion was done either in the late 20's or early 30's.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: John38 on November 24, 2013, 20:57:30
For AFCRochester

One I prepared earlier, for the Fire Chief at RAF Wildenrath, who came from Bromley (Kent Connection).

I drew it in 1982
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on November 27, 2013, 17:42:52
Hi John38 :)

What a wonderful drawing! I'm not sure if you wanted me to identify it or not but here goes! :)

She is a Mid-70's Mk 9 FCT (foam crash truck) but also doubled up as a Water Tender (for non-aviation fires). Built on a Thorneycraft Nubian Major 10 ton chassis with a wheelbase measuring 15'x8'2", it was powered by a Cummins V903 diesel 306 gross hp engine.

The equipment included a 1,250 gallon water tank, (the tank on an "everyday" fire engine is 400 gallons, in some cases less), a single-stage centrifugal Mk14 water pump driven by a PTO from the chassis, a 130 gallon-Foam Liquid Tank, a Trinity type 2500 monitor with an output of 590 gpm at 180lbs/sq.in, with a minimum throw of 180'.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: John38 on November 27, 2013, 20:05:53
Not just any old engine then :)

Glad you liked it!
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: afsrochester on November 27, 2013, 22:12:02
A lovely piece of kit! :) Makes my Hosecart look like a Matchbox Toy!!!! :)

Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: HERB COLLECTOR on October 23, 2015, 17:11:23
Kent Fire Brigade - Shand Mason Fire Engine.
NA3T. GMOO300. (http://www.na3t.org/road/photo/GM00330) Photo taken at Maidstone Fire Station.
See http://www.na3t.org/road?search=Kent+fire+brigade (http://www.na3t.org/road?search=Kent+fire+brigade) for more photos of Kent Fire Brigade vehicles.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: filmer01 on October 23, 2015, 17:43:56
Sorry to be picky Herb Collector, but that was taken outside the Brigade Station at the top of Chatham Hill. Very distinctive windows and even the right background.

I remember it well, was the highlight of every bus trip to the shops as a little boy. I also remember seeing it at some open day when I was allowed up close.
Title: Re: Old Engines
Post by: KeithJG on October 27, 2015, 12:45:48
Yes, you are correct filmer01 as i also remember that scene.....

On that website there are a lot of images where the location and even year need editing.