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Author Topic: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham  (Read 15388 times)

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Offline kyn

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2013, 20:06:29 »
It is marked: MPHH1_356

Offline kyn

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2013, 18:09:33 »
Not to hand, I will try and add it when I have time.  It should be with the original post in the Medway board under fortresses.

Mark_S

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 18:02:30 »
National Archives, Kew.

Do you have the reference?

Mark_S

Offline kyn

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2013, 17:42:58 »
National Archives, Kew.

Mark_S

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2013, 16:22:16 »
Hi Merc,

Where did this map come from originally?


Mark_S

This plan (originally posted by Kyn) shows Siege Operations in 1877, and shows the tramway (By the red dot). I'm not sure if the tramway terminated near the Church Path, or went further...

It shows the line going to the R.E. Park and a branch to the North that crosses the ditch again, and probably connected to the line on swiftone's map.

(Image removed from quote.)

Mark_S

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2013, 10:48:24 »
The proposed route for the tramway (dated 1902) may be found under reference MR1/1124/1-2 at the National Archive in Kew. I totally agree that the failure of the scheme was a major influence in the decision to relocate the 8th and 53rd Railway Companies to Longmoor. Eastward expansion of manufacturing facilities at the Royal Arsenal (thereby putting a greater load on the railway system there and rendering it less able to accommodate 'distractions') similarly put paid to the 10th Company's attempts to retain the instructional facility at Woolwich in 1904.


Mark
Thanks, I must have missed that post! Would have been very expensive I would imagine and changed the building regime along its route, leading to some differences as to the way things developed along the north side of Chatham Hill especially. And how long would it have lasted before becoming obsolete?

Offline smiffy

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2013, 21:22:45 »
Thanks, I must have missed that post! Would have been very expensive I would imagine and changed the building regime along its route, leading to some differences as to the way things developed along the north side of Chatham Hill especially. And how long would it have lasted before becoming obsolete?

merc

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2013, 18:56:44 »

Offline bromptonboy

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2013, 18:40:06 »
Smiffy, the plans are on here somewhere. I think the abandonment of the Chatham to Darland railway was what led to the RE's setting up their Railway School at Longmoor. I think Chatham was the original choice for the school.

Offline smiffy

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 15:48:19 »
It would be interesting to know what route was proposed for this line.

Mark_S

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2013, 15:44:52 »
Hello bromptonboy,

This explains a lot. A fellow member of the Industrial Railway Society has recently unearthed certain 1901 documents relating to this railway proposal (including the requisite legal sanction). It appears that an attempt was made to revive the scheme in 1904 as plans for the projected railway survive in the National Archive. The main point to notice is that the line would have been 2ft.6in. gauge rather than 1ft.6in. (the latter was abandoned as a standard for 'front line' usage in 1900) and would almost certainly have taken over the Royal Engineers' (8th & 53rd Company) railway instructional capability in Chatham, given the impending loss of the Chattenden & Upnor to the Admiralty and the fact that the 'Burgoyne' and 'Borstal' 18 inch gauge lines were now obsolete if not abandoned. In the event, the RE 8th & 53rd Railway Companies (along with the 10th based at the Royal Arsenal) moved to Longmoor in 1905, the C&U passed to the admiralty in the following year and these events sounded the death knell for the Chatham-Darland scheme.

Mark   

An interesting passage from the Evening telegraph of Tuesday 26 May 1903.

TRAM STOPS TRAIN
An extraordinary deadlock, involving the loss of thousands of pounds of public money, has just arisen at Chatham.
About two years ago the Royal Engineers commenced the construction of an important military railway to connect Chatham and Fort Darland. Between Old and New Brompton the line has to cross a road, and piers have been erected to support the necessary bridge.
It has now been discovered that another authority possesses powers to run an electric tramway on the overhead system along the road in question, and consequently to clear the poles and wires belonging to the tramway the militray bridge will have to be raised another six feet.
As this would entail a considerable alteration in the level of the railway on both sides of the bridge, the military authorities are at present hesitating whether or not to abandon the railway.


Is this the railway line that was to cross Brompton Road just outside of the Brompton Barrier? I feel it probably is.

Offline bromptonboy

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 12:36:57 »
On reflection my last post might be more appropriate in the Forts Railway section!

Offline bromptonboy

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2013, 12:33:27 »
An interesting passage from the Evening Telegraph of Tuesday 26 May, 1903.

TRAM STOPS TRAIN
An extraordinary deadlock, involving the loss of thousands of pounds of public money, has just arisen at Chatham.
About two years ago the Royal Engineers commenced the construction of an important military railway to connect Chatham and Fort Darland. Between Old and New Brompton the line has to cross a road, and piers have been erected to support the necessary bridge.
It has now been discovered that another authority possesses powers to run an electric tramway on the overhead system along the road in question, and consequently to clear the poles and wires belonging to the tramway the militray bridge will have to be raised another six feet.
As this would entail a considerable alteration in the level of the railway on both sides of the bridge, the military authorities are at present hesitating whether or not to abandon the railway.


Is this the railway line that was to cross Brompton Road just outside of the Brompton Barrier? I feel it probably is.

Mark_S

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2013, 16:18:41 »
Hello Swiftone,

The roots of this railway go back to the Royal Engineers inspecting the Crewe Works internal 18 inch gauge tramway in 1870. Their initial foray into 18 inch gauge was an experimental 'gantry railway' based on the ideas of John Barraclough Fell (using long wheelbase rolling stock with guide wheels and a six coupled tender locomotive built on the same principles by Manning Wardle of Leeds as maker's number 412). After tests at Aldershot in 1872-3, the Royal Engineers declined to spend any more money on the system, but RE Committee minute 1052 of 1873 authorised the purchase of an 18 inch gauge 0-4-0ST locomotive similar to "Busy Bee" (Manning Wardle 424 of 1873) in use in the Dockyard on four grounds, two of which were (i) for use (in conjunction with a third rail) in the building and repair of military lines of any gauge (was this ever tested on the Chattenden & Upnor Railway?), and (ii) for use in the testing and operation trench tramways. Given that another Committee minute authorised the use of any salvageable material from the Aldershot venture in trench tramway experiments at Chatham, it appears that the tramway associated with the Great Lines area dated from circa 1873 any would have relied on the purchased loco "Burgoyne" (Manning Wardle 448 of 1873) for mechanical motive power until at least 1878 (I have a side view 'architectural' pattern drawing of the engine made at the SME in that year).
In 1878 six 'Handyside' patent 2-4-2T locomotives employing winches were purchased for use by the Royal Engineers and it is known from RE Committee Minutes that at least one was tested on what I now term the 'Burgoyne' Railway (as well on Erith Marshes). Although declared unsatisfactory for purpose, it is known that at least some later found use on the 'Borstal' (Medway Fortifications) Railway where their winches were useful on the incline near Fort Borstal (RE Professional Paper VII, 1883).
After 1886 the position becomes more complicated. 1885 saw the failed Suakin-Berber Railway Campaign in Sudan and in direct and indirect consequence a further 12 18 inch gauge locomotives, all 0-4-2Ts (Five Bagnall and seven Fowler) were now deemed to form the new 18 inch gauge front line strategic reserve. It is known from another architectural drawing, this time of the first Bagnall, recently sold on eBay that these were kept at the 'RE Park' (presumably the one shown on the 1877 Map), but did they ever see use either on the 'Burgoyne' or 'Borstal' railways prior to their transfer to the Royal Arsenal Railways, Woolwich following the RE Committee decision to discontinue locomotive usage on 'front line 18 inch gauge railways two years earlier.
'Burgoyne' appears to have departed from Chatham shortly after 1886 as a standard gauge ex-Suakin locomotive by the same builder and with the same name appears on the Chattenden & Upnor in the late 1880s or early 1890s at the latest. It is not known whether it went to another military location or was sold out of service altogether (last spares supplied by maker in 1892). 18 inch gauge 'trench tramway' experiments were still being undertaken at Chatham in 1895 (1898 Military Handbook), but it was decided to dispense with the gauge for front line use altogether in 1900 (although that was not to be the end of the 18 inch gauge military story completely!).
What is urgently needed is enough map evidence to, as far as possible, effect a complete reconstruction of this trench tramway system from 1873 to circa 1900. Can you help?

Yours sincerely,

Mark Smithers



This is from Kyns 1879 map at http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13539.0

(Image removed from quote.)

It shows the complete circuit of the trench tramway where my previous post of the 1885 map just shows a short spur.
Perhaps Kyn could post a close up showing the missing part from this spur along Prince Arthur Rd, please.

Offline swiftone

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Re: Tramway near the Lines - Gillingham
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2012, 08:08:45 »
This is from Kyns 1879 map at http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13539.0



It shows the complete circuit of the trench tramway where my previous post of the 1885 map just shows a short spur.
Perhaps Kyn could post a close up showing the missing part from this spur along Prince Arthur Rd, please.

 

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