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Author Topic: The King of Prussia (aka Prince of Orange, King George V) [i]  (Read 5517 times)

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merc

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Re: The King of Prussia (aka Prince of Orange, King George V) [i]
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2012, 20:17:24 »
Thanks, I think you're probably right mikeb.

I originally thought it might be another Battleship because the pubs named after the King, rather than a battleship. Plus I didn't realise there was a 'HMS King George V' at the time. Oh well...


Offline mikeb

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Re: The King of Prussia (aka Prince of Orange, King George V) [i]
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 18:13:41 »
Quote
I've been meaning to ask this before, but never got round to it...Does anyone know what ship is painted on the side of the pub?, and when it was painted?

HMS King George V ?

merc

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Re: The King of Prussia (aka Prince of Orange, King George V) [i]
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2012, 17:23:39 »
I've been meaning to ask this before, but never got round to it...Does anyone know what ship is painted on the side of the pub?, and when it was painted?

Offline Leofwine

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Re: The King of Prussia (aka Prince of Orange, King George V) [i]
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2011, 21:37:30 »
The following entries are in this format:
Year/Publican or other Resident/Relationship to Head and or Occupation/Age/Where Born/Source.


As Prince of Orange:
1740/John Hall/../../../Deeds       6 Prospect Row

1743/John Hall/../../../Deeds       6 Prospect Row

1744/John Hall/../../../Deeds       6 Prospect Row

1779/John Humphries/../../../Deeds       6 Prospect Row

King of Prussia :
1758-1767 Thomas White/../../../Licensing Records

1808-1813 John Sturla Jnr/../../../KGV Website

1813-1816 Richard Chidney/../../../KGV Website

1816-1817 Joseph Chidney/../../../KGV Website

1817-1818 Richard Chidney/../../../KGV Website

1818-1819 John Ludweeks/../../../KGV Website

1819-1820 John Adams/../../../KGV Website

1820-1825 John Chidney/../../../KGV Website

1825-1827 William Eveling/../../../KGV Website

1828/William Eveling/../../../Pigot’s Directory             Prospect Row
1827-1830 David Garland/../../../KGV Website

1830-1836 Ann Makison/../../../KGV Website
1832-4/Ann Makinson/../../../Pigot’s Directory             Prospect Row

1836-1843 Robert Sowter/../../../KGV Website
1838/Robert Sowter/../../../Wright’s Topography          Prospect Row
1840/Robt. Sowter/../../../Pigot’s Directory                     Prospect Row

1842-1848 Robert Field/../../../KGV Website

1848-1849 James Holloway/../../../KGV Website

1849-1851 Richard Brook/../../../KGV Website
1849/Richard Brook/../../../Williams’ Directory                     6 Prospect Row

1851-1852 John Morgan/../../../KGV Website

1852-1853 William Deacon/../../../KGV Website

1853-1855 James Thomas Atkins/../../../KGV Website

1855-1859 William Charles Hunt/../../../KGV Website
1858/William Charles Hunt/../../../Melvilles Directory          Prospect Row
1858/William Charles/../../../Phippen’s Directory             Prospect Row

1859-1860 Charlotte Fuller/../../../KGV Website

1860-1861 John Mould/../../../KGV Website

1861-1862 Ebeneser Nicholas/../../../KGV Website

1862-1863 John Small Sedger/../../../KGV Website
1862/John S Sedger/../../../Post Office Directory

1863-1865 Harriet Atkins/../../../KGV Website
1865/Not Listed/../../../Simpson’s Directory

1865-1868 William Date/../../../KGV Website
1866/John Dade/../../../Post Office Directory                 Garden Street
1867/William Dade/Victualler/../../Taylor’s Directory            Prospect Row

1868-1871 Joseph Coppin/../../../KGV Website
1870/Joseph Coppen/../../../Kelly’s Directory              Garden St

1870/R. Morgan/../../../Percy’s Directory      1 Prospect Row

1871-1872 Richard Morgan/../../../KGV Website
1872/Richard Morgan/../../../Licensing Records    Garden Street    Owner: Edward Winch, Chatham
1872/William Baker (From Sept 27)/../../../Licensing Records    Garden Street    Owner: Edward Winch, Chatham

1872-1873 William Baker/../../../KGV Website
1873/William Baker (until Aug 7)/../../../Licensing Records    Garden Street    Owner: Edward Winch, Chatham

1873-   Charles Firmin (not confirmed)/../../../KGV Website

1874-  Pub not licensed

1875-1884 Alfred Snelling/../../../KGV Website
1877/Alfd. Snelling/../../../Manning’s Directory              Garden St
1880/Alfred Snelling/../../../Licensing Records        Owner: Edward Winch, Chatham
1881/Alfred Snelling/Innkeeper/36/Outwood, Surrey/Census
1881/Cordelia M Snelling/Wife/33/Chatham, Kent/Census
1881/Alfred C T Snelling/Son/6/Chatham, Kent/Census
1881/Frederick W Snelling/Son/5/Gillingham, Kent/Census
1881/Walter G Snelling/Son/3/Gillingham, Kent/Census
1881/Charles E Snelling/Son/2/Gillingham, Kent/Census
1881/Lauretta P Snelling/Daughter/1/Gillingham, Kent/Census
1881/Mary E Driscoll/General Servant/17/Gillingham, Kent/Census
1882/Alfred Snelling/../../../Post Office Directory
1882/Alfred Snelling/../../../Kelly’s Directory                            Prospect Row

1884-1898 Joseph Henry Draper/../../../KGV Website
1890/Joseph Henry Draper/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1891-2/Joseph Henry Draper/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1894/Joseph Henry Draper/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1897-8/Joseph Henry Draper/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1898-9/Joseph Henry Draper/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row

1898-1914 Frank Thomas Drury/../../../KGV Website
1913/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Post Office Directory
1913/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kellys Directory     1 Prospect Row
1900/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1902-3/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1902-3/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Parson’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1903-4/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1904-5/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1905-6/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1906-7/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1907-8/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1908-9/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1909-10/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1911-2/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1912-3/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1913-4/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            Prospect Row

As King George V:
1914-1924 Frank Thomas Drury/../../../KGV Website
1916/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            Prospect Row
1918/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Post Office Directory
1920/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory       1 Prospect Row
1920-1/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1921/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory       1 Prospect Row
1922/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory       1 Prospect Row
1922/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Post Office Directory
1923/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory       1 Prospect Row
1924/Frank Thomas Drury/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row

1924-1930 Alfred Royal/../../../KGV Website
1925/Alfred Royal/../../../Kelly’s Directory       1 Prospect Row
1926/Alfred Royal/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1927/Alfred Royal/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1928/Alfred Royal/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1929/Alfred Royal/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1930/Alfred Royal/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1930/Alfred Royal/../../../Post Office Directory

1930-1934 Francis George Leon/../../../KGV Website
1931-20 Aug 1934/Francis George Leon/../../../Licensing Records       Owner: Style & Winch Ltd     Garden Street
1931/Fras. Geo. Leon/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1932/Fras. Geo. Leon/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1933/Fras. Geo. Leon/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1934/Fras. Geo. Leon/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row

1934-1938 Albert Clark/../../../KGV Website
20 Aug 1934-15 Aug 1938/Albert Clarke/../../../Licensing Records       Owner: Style & Winch Ltd     Garden Street
1935/Albt. Clark/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1936/Albt. Clark/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1937/Albt. Clark/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1938/Albt. Clark/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1938/Albert Clarke/../../../Post Office Directory
1939/Albt. Clark/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row

1938-1940 George Thomas Smith/../../../KGV Website
15 Aug 1938-23 Sept 1940/George Thomas Smith/../../../Licencing Records          Owner: Style & Winch Ltd        Garden Street

1940-1941 Leslie Alexander/../../../KGV Website
23 Sept 1940-19 May 1941/Leslie Alexander/../../../Licencing Records         Owner: Style & Winch Ltd         Garden Street

1941-1954 Reginald Harry How/../../../KGV Website
19 May 1941-25 Oct 1954/Reginald Harry How/../../../Licencing Records        Owner: Style & Winch Ltd      Garden Street
1948/Regnld. H. How/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row
1951/Regnld. H. How/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row

1954-1956 Frederick George Harris/../../../KGV Website
25 Oct 1954-16 Apr 1956/Frederick George Harris/../../../Licencing Records         Owner: Style & Winch Ltd      Garden Street
1955/Fredk. G. Harris/../../../Kelly’s Directory            1 Prospect Row

1956-1958 Arthur Harold Woods/../../../KGV Website
16 Apr 1956-1958/Arthur Harold Woods/../../../Licencing Records       Owner: Style & Winch Ltd       Garden Street

1958-1979 Allan & Barbara Kennedy/../../../KGV Website

1967/Arthur H. Woods/../../../Electoral Roll             1 Prospect Row
1967/Betty Woods/../../../Electoral Roll             1 Prospect Row
1967/Arthur M. Woods/../../../Electoral Roll             1 Prospect Row

1971/Allan Kennedy/../../../Electoral Roll             1 Prospect Row
1971/Barbara A. Kennedy/../../../Electoral Roll             1 Prospect Row

1975/Allan Kennedy/../../../Electoral Roll             1 Prospect Row
1975/Barbara A. Kennedy/../../../Electoral Roll             1 Prospect Row

1979-1988 Romvydas Andruskevicius/../../../KGV Website

1988-1999 Alan & Barbara McNichol/../../../KGV Website

1999-2004 Mark & Maureen Boland/../../../KGV Website

2004-2011 John & Diane Brice/../../../KGV Website

Offline Leofwine

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Re: The King of Prussia (aka Prince of Orange, King George V) [i]
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2011, 17:52:45 »
This troublesome pub has thrown me another curve-ball today. I was searching through the licensing records from 1755 to 1762 today and found that The King of Prussia does not appear as a licensed establishment until 1758. There is a Prince of Orange earlier, but as this is in Chatham West Borough and continues along side the King of Prussia, that is a different pub (the one in Chatham High Street).

However, in 1740 the owner, James Hickes (who purchased the land for it in 1733), used it as collateral in a loan, the document stating:
“All that one messuage or tenement and all other buildings and structures upon the abovementioned and described piece or parcell of land erected and built by the said James Hicks and thereupon now standing and being and the yard backside garden and appurtenances thereunto belonging which said messuage or tenement is now used as a Public Victualling House and is called or knowne by the name or sign of The Prince of Orange and now in the tenure of John Hall or his assigns or undertenants and all manner of houses outhouses edifices erectments shedds buildings wayes passages pumps wells waters springs of water fences rents lights easements priviledges libertys profits” etc. (my emphasis)

And in 1743 in another deed:
“All that now built brick messuage or tenement and of the washhouse stable outbuildings edifices yard backside garden and ground thereunto belonging or therewith used letten occupied or enjoyed with their rights liberties priviledges members and appurtenances situate lying and being in or near a certain place called Prospect Row in Brompton aforesaid in the Parish of Gillingham aforesaid which said messuage or tenement is now used as a Publick Victualling House and is called or known by the name or sign of The Prince of Orange and now or late in the tenure possession or occupation of John Hall or of his assigns or undertenants” (my emphasis)

And 1744:
"all that his messuage tenement & dwelling house together with the wash house, shed for beer stable & all other buildings or erections whatsoever thereunto belonging & the yard & back side thereto also belonging situate lying & being in Prospect Row in Brompton in the said parish of Gillingham and now in the occupation of the said John Hall and commonly known by the name & sign of The Prince of Orange." (my emphasis)

And other similar documents to 1848.

I had understood that a "Public Victualling House" meant a pub but if this is the case it should appear in the licensing records. As it does not it leaves a mystery. I can think of a number of possible explanations, but none of them really jumps out as most likely:

a) A Public Victualling House could be something other than a pub. A restaurant maybe?  But in the 18th century would such a premises be unlicenced?

b) It was known by another name in 1755 to 1757. This doesn't really hold up as there is no pub that vanishes at the right date.

c) Sometime between 1748 and 1755 it lost its licence or the licence was allowed to lapse, but got it renewed in 1759.

d) Up until 1759 it was operating illegally as an unlicensed drinking establishment. James Hickes appears to have been a wheeler-dealer/chance in his business ventures from other documents, but I doubt he could have kept an unlicensed pub going for 18-25 years in a relatively built up and busy area.

Can anyone offer any suggestions as to what was going on?

Offline Leofwine

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Re: The King of Prussia (aka Prince of Orange, King George V) [i]
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2011, 15:37:43 »
This pub, or more technically, pubs, has a complex history I am still uncovering. Although originally called the Prince of Orange when built in about 1733 by James Hickes, sometime in the mid 18th century it became the King of Prussia, although to confuse matters further, the two names are used almost interchangeably from the 1750s to the late 1770s. It is also a well recorded fact that in 1914, for patriotic reasons at the outbreak of the Great War, The King of Prussia was renamed the King George V. Because of this most people consider the Prince of Orange, the King of Prussia and the King George V to be the same pub. HOWEVER, the original Prince of Orange, which became the King of Prussia, was at the building now known as No. 6 Prospect Row, and the current King George V is at 1 Prospect Row, a completely different building. The move seems to have occurred in the mid 1860s (1862 is the last entry for it being at 6 Prospect Row, and it does not appear again until 1867 when it is on the corner of Garden Street & Prospect Row, and it notably absent from sources in 1863 and 1865), with the King of Prussia becoming a private house, and the building on the corner of Prospect Row (a grocer's shop in the 1851 & 61 censuses) opening as the King of Prussia public house. There is an element of confusion here as in the 1841 census the man we know (from directories) to have been the landlord of the King of Prussia is at 6 Prospect Row, as a licensed victualler. However, the corner building (1 Prospect Row) shows a publican living there who can not be traced in any of the directory entries, so the corner building might be an otherwise unidentified pub (or beerhouse) that closed sometime between 1841 & 51 before becoming a shop for a couple of decades, then reverting to a pub.

I do have more detailed information which I will add at a future date.

The Prince of Orange/King of Prussia from c.1733-1862, now 6 Prospect Row is the left hand building. The right hand building (No. 7) was part of the plot the pub was built on, but at that time was probably yards and stables for the pub, not a house. The door on the extreme left is the entrance to No. 5, but the pub had a 'flying freehold over the alleyway beside No.5 fro a height of 8' upwards. Photo taken 2010


The King of Prussia/King George V (1 Prospect Row) c.1867-present. Photos from top to bottom c. 1884-1898, 1958, 1978, 2010







At the time of the Inquest the landlord would have been Robert Sowter, who later became the landlord of the Queen's Head for several decades

Offline kyn

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The King of Prussia (aka Prince of Orange, King George V) [i]
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2011, 14:40:47 »
This public house was used in 1842 as the site for a Coroner’s inquest into a suicide in Chatham Barracks.  The deceased was Thomas Kenny, a soldier from the 55th Regiment of Foot.

 

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