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Author Topic: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868  (Read 19536 times)

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roberry21

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2014, 19:17:54 »
And the Good Intent Pub circa 1890

roberry21

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2014, 19:14:29 »
Cobden place was a row of 2 bed terraced houses with the Good Intent pub in the terrace which sat directly opposite what is now the Happy Shopper and sat on Borstal St. between Nashenden Lane and Silver Hill. The terrace in which the pub sat is now partly under the retirement flats and the terrace of houses 127-141 and partly under Borstal Street itself, as the terrace was knocked down to widen the road. The picture provided shows the pub on the right and directly opposite where the girl is standing. The village shop in the picture is where the Chinese and Fish and Chip Shop now is.

Offline peterchall

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2013, 21:47:10 »
Great find Grandarog, it all seems to fit.

There was Borstal Street with even numbers on the right leaving the town (the White Horse pub is No86) and Cobden Place numbered as a separate road on the left. Being on the bank I suppose, in a sense, it was. I wonder if there were any odd numbered ‘Borstal Street’ addresses on that side of the road. With open fields to the back it was vulnerable to a stray shot from a firing range situated near to Maidstone Road, perhaps 600-1000 yards away, all compatible with the newspaper report.

Here I hang my head in shame. In Reply#13 I was the first to refer to the road behind Cobden Place as Sydney Road, but for the pedants among us it is actually Sidney Road, as is also the one at Gillingham; the one at Chatham is Sydney Road (I wonder who Sidney was)

The weapon seems certain to have been a muzzle loading rifle easily discharged in error as described by Grandarog. The ammunition used would have been Minie-ball, a bullet shaped round attached to a paper bag of powder, hence avoiding the earlier system of pouring powder down the barrel and then ramming down the round separately. To answer my earlier question, the bullet fitted the top of the rifling grooves, so there was no resistance caused by them cutting into it as it was rammed down; it had a hollow base so that, when fired, the gas pressure expanded it into the rifling grooves.

Yet another successful investigation by KHF? :) Is there anything we've missed?
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Offline grandarog

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2013, 12:04:57 »
Sydney Road, Rochester (the one at Borstal) and Sydney Road, Gillingham do not appear on the censi before 1891 so built twixt 1881 and 1891. So would not have been there to impede the projectile flight during 1868.

Offline peterchall

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2013, 08:32:05 »
According to Wikipedia the current system of odd numbered addresses on the left and even ones on the right leaving the town centre started in the early/mid-nineteenth century so, if Cobden Place didn't exist before 1861, would it have been on the bank - the 'odd-numbered' side of the road? There seems to have been an exception to the rule where there were premises on only one side of the road - in that case the addresses were numbered consecutively. I wonder if buildings on the bank would have been regarded as a separate road numbered independently of those in Borstal Street; in other words, was there a 6 Borstal Street as well as a 6 Cobden Place?

Another fly-in-the-ointment would be the existence of Sydney Road. If that was there in 1868 a shot couldn’t have gone into Mrs Champion’s kitchen at a reasonably flat angle – see Google Street View or Bing Maps Bird’s-eye View.

Can anyone find out when Sydney Road was built? (It is shown on the 1893 OS map).
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Offline grandarog

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2013, 19:59:52 »
Just to clear up any doubt about "The Good Intent" Borstal.
  It was situated at Number 6 Cobden Place Borstal Street at the dates  of 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891, Censii. There doesnt appear to be any Cobden Place prior to 1861 or after 1891
1891. Throughout the period Matilda Higgins was the landlady.
 With the earlier reference to a Queen Street Good Intent pub. That was a different pub altogether In the Melville1957 it is listed as Queen Street ,Troy Town which is a consideranle distance from Cobden Place. Borstal Street.The confusion arise,s from the linking of the two as one on the Dead pubs site.

Below are transcript from the Census Sheets.

1891
Person: HIGGINS, Matilda ?
Address: Good Intent, Cobden Place, Rochester

1881
Person: HIGGINS, Matilda A
Address: Good Intent Public House, Cobden Pl, Rochester St Margaret

1871
Person: HIGGINS, Matilda A
Address: Cobden Place The Good Intent, St Margaret, Rochester

1861
Person: HIGGINS, Matilda A
Address:  Good Intent, 6 Cobden Place, St Margaret, Rochester

Offline Lyn L

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2013, 18:27:55 »
Horstedfarmerson...

That was the point I was trying (not very successfully  :) ) to put across, when I referred to your post in the link I added from the Pub Index. That there were 4 Pubs in Borstal.  I'm just not good with old maps. Leofwine has added a Good Intent pub at Borstal in his list though.
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Offline Horstedfarmerson

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2013, 18:16:02 »
I did look to see if I could find a Cobden place and tend to think that it was the houses that where on the bank and now have been replaced by newer one's as their back doors and kitchen would be in line with the shot over Cookham Hill, I have not heard of a Good Intent in Borstal but I am not saying there was not one and would like to know exactly where it was placed ,would it have also been up on the bank near Cobden Place as the information I found seem's to put it there, I searched and did find this piece of information about pubs called Good Intent . This piece below states that in 1881 there was a Good Intent in a Cobden Place.
Please, can everyone understand, that there was a Good Intent in Borstal in the 1890s.

http://pubshistory.com/KentPubs/Rochester/GoodIntent.shtml

Offline peterchall

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2013, 12:35:08 »
Oops - it must be the hot weather :) Apologies, Rochester-bred :) :)

Also, let me correct my previous in another respect: If the firing range was positioned near the junction of Maidstone Road and Priestfields it would be at too acute an angle to Borstal Street - it would have to be somewhere in the region of the present Math School to give a reasonably direct entry to a back door to a house on the bank. But the range would be about the same, or less, depending on how far it actually was from the road. However, it would definitely not pass over the ROAD called Cookham Hill
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Rochester-bred

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2013, 12:20:19 »
Cough cough peterchall ... My link not Grandarog’s  :)  Rather pedantic of me I know but put it down to my my  O.C.D. 

Offline peterchall

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2013, 11:11:42 »
Grandarog, if what you suggest is correct it makes sense.

My previous reply was a rather hurried late-night one which didn’t give due thought to LynL’s suggestion that numbers may have changed (Apologies for that :)). It was based on an 1893 map and the principle that, coming from the town centre, odd numbers are on the left and even ones on the right; I know that applied in 1893, but may not have done in 1868.

The link I mentioned shows the records of pubs in Borstal going back to 1862 (White Horse), so I wonder why the Good Intent was not mentioned. And there is another anomaly – Grandarog’s link shows it to be in Queen Street in 1858 and Cobden Place at the later time of 1881, yet I know there was a Good Intent in Queen Street throughout my childhood and there is still one now (albeit in John Street, although I think that is only due to the re-naming of the street – the pub is still on the same site).

But leaving that aside, if Cobden Place (I’ve noticed that I called it Cobden Terrace in my previous post – sorry about that!) was on the bank it would have been about 800-900 yards from a firing range near the junction of Maidstone Road and the present Priestfields. The 1850 series rifle-muskets had a maximum range of 2000 yards so, at a guess, I reckon the angle of elevation for that range would be about 20deg. If Sydney Road was not there (it was in 1893 but may not have been in 1868) the back kitchens of Cobden Place would have been exposed, and the trajectory would have been flat enough for the bullet to pass through Mrs. Champion’s thigh and hit the copper behind her. With regard to the energy in the round, it may not have passed through a thick part of her flesh, but only just below the surface. That she had time to summon help from nearby workmen and a doctor came suggests, bearing in mind the speed of communication and travel at the time, she was not that badly hurt. Mention of the bullet passing over Cookham Hill may not have meant the road by that name (which might not have been there in 1868), but to the general high ground in that area.

We need an earlier map than my one of 1893.
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Rochester-bred

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2013, 09:10:10 »
I did look to see if I could find a Cobden place and tend to think that it was the houses that were on the bank and now have been replaced by newer one's as their back doors and kitchen would be in line with the shot over Cookham Hill. I have not heard of a Good Intent in Borstal but I am not saying there was not one and would like to know exactly where it was placed. Would it have also been up on the bank near Cobden Place, as the information I found seem's to put it there? I searched and did find this piece of information about pubs called Good Intent. This piece below states that in 1881 there was a Good Intent in a Cobden Place.

http://pubshistory.com/KentPubs/Rochester/GoodIntent.shtml

Offline peterchall

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2013, 22:56:32 »
Here is a view in the opposite direction.

Note that Borstal Road, coming up from Rochester, becomes Borstal Street at the Junction with Cookham Hill. According to Grandarog’s info there were 3 Borstal Street houses on the right (Nos 2, 4 & 6), then Cobden Terrace between there and the ‘Good Intent’ pub. So I think Cobden Terrace was where the obviously much later row of houses is now, making the pub where the corner shop with the yellow awning is

However, if you go to the link in your previous post, LynL, and select pubs in Kent>Borstal, you get this, which doesn’t show a ‘Good Intent’ in Borstal:
http://pubshistory.com/KentPubs/Borstal/borstal.shtml

Very mysterious, and not compatible (to me, anyway :)) with the newspaper report of the incident!
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Offline Lyn L

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2013, 21:45:03 »
Here's the link to the Pub index thread.

http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=16076.0
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Offline Lyn L

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Re: Rifle Accident at Borstal - 1868
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2013, 21:42:36 »
PC, I still think Cobden Place was nearer the Co-op,  much further down in Borstal , there are a couple of places in the village where houses are tucked at the back, one by the side of the Baptist church and the other by the Happy Shopper supermarket. Are you going by the house numbers now? Have they changed since 1868?
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