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Author Topic: Dover barrage balloon mystery  (Read 97338 times)

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Offline kyn

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #352 on: August 02, 2015, 22:42:30 »
A message from Peterchall:

“Please accept my apologies if my last post offended anyone.

It has been a very interesting thread.

Peterchall”.

Offline kyn

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #351 on: July 31, 2015, 16:48:02 »
And another complaint regarding this thread!

This thread is now closed and will remain so for good this time.

I don't know whether to shake my head or laugh ;-)  Now please behave yourselves :)

Offline peterchall

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #350 on: July 31, 2015, 14:24:15 »
I just wondered what shaving problems and a doctored photo of a bus has to do with this thread.

How does that photo prove anything new?

1). The balloons are over central Canterbury and viewed from the north-west, but you say those in the ‘forged’ image are over the cavalry barracks and viewed from the south-east, so the photo says nothing about those. Does he ORB specifically mention the balloons over the centre of the city?

2).The balloons might appear in a random pattern in that view, but looked at from a different direction some might look closer together. In the map you posted several ‘pairs’ could be picked out, depending on how close together they need be to be regarded as a pair. Have you looked along that sightline on your map to see the 3 ‘pairs’ of balloons, as I suggested?

3). Where has it been suggested that balloons would be in neat rows?

But you seem to avoid discussion of anything that might contradict your assertions. What do you think of my post about the sightlines?
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Offline otis

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #349 on: July 31, 2015, 10:22:07 »
It's just been proved, by yet another means, that the opening photo is a forgery ?

Why daft ?
"there was more hit than miss about this arbitrary bombardment"

Offline peterchall

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #348 on: July 31, 2015, 10:13:36 »
Am I the only one thinking this thread has gone completely daft?
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #347 on: July 31, 2015, 09:51:43 »
This didn't really come out as well as I'd hoped (plus although it's the right chassis- and body makers, it's not in the correct livery for a bus - Tilling green).  Anyway, the aim was to give an idea, without using yet another balloon image, of what something 62 ft long looks like - in this case two 31' 6" Bristol Lodekka FLFs.

Offline Nemo

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #346 on: July 31, 2015, 08:40:50 »
Hang on guys, isn't what we need this...(sorry if it's not - it's as much as I can do to shave in the mirror every morning!)

Offline peterchall

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #345 on: July 31, 2015, 08:08:33 »
I had the following ready to post, but Otis just beat me to it with his latest. I’m not sure how they relate, but will post it as prepared anyway and compare later

Are we all happy that my lower blue line passes over the northernmost Transmitter mast or not ?
Speaking for myself – yes, now that you have clarified it.

As you say, the sightline is central to the discussion, and the relevant photos show that the sightline to the barracks clock-tower passes to the right of the northernmost transmitter mast, as shown by my red line in Reply#334, which means that your projected green line over Canterbury (Reply#327) is too far to the north-east.

Just how far depends on how far the sightline is to the right of the transmitter tower, and we can get an idea with some approximations which can be refined later if necessary:

Distance between clock-tower and transmitter = 18mm on 1/50000 scale map = 2950 feet on ground.
Distance to Canterbury = 15 miles = 79200 feet
Ratio between distances = 79200/2950 = 27-to-1, as near as ‘dammit’ is to swearing.

So, if my example of the actual sightline at Canterbury being 3000 feet south-west of your green line is correct (Reply#338), it will pass 3000/27 = 111 feet to the right of the transmitter tower.

If so, it puts those 6 balloons that I identified in the position shown in the opening post. But unless we can get more accurate measurements all that can be said for now is that it is all wide open and my scenario at Reply#325 is valid.. 

To finally decide we need exact measurements of:
1) Distance from barracks clock-tower to northernmost transmitter mast.
2) Distance from northernmost transmitter mast to Canterbury city centre.
3) Distance of sightline to the right of the northernmost transmitter mast.
4) A means of accurately positioning that sightline across Canterbury.
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Offline otis

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #344 on: July 31, 2015, 07:33:03 »
Another brilliant find by Nemo. Now we have no need to go back in time to see what our view of the balloons would have looked like. We instead have a photo of those balloons taken from the very angle we need ! ! !  :) :)

Some quick observations.........

1) There are more than 6 balloons over central Canterbury, as per the ORB, and contrary to the forged image. I see nine there in that cropped view ?

2) The balloons are in a more spread/random pattern rather than the three lined up pairs as in the forged image. This is what I suggested when I was talking about the limited options for placing balloon sites in towns.

3) The balloons are meant to be a deterent to low flying aircraft. Notice how the random pattern of placement would make it hard for a pilot to judge where balloon cables are. Lining the balloons up in neat rows would make it a fairly simple task to just fly down the large empty rows !
"there was more hit than miss about this arbitrary bombardment"

Offline otis

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #343 on: July 30, 2015, 21:56:20 »
The sight line is central to the proof of whether the image is true or not. We need to determine the correct alignment.

I did suggest in post #334 that a zoom in on Google of the masts would solve your resolution issue. I do not know if you registered that one ?

Are we all happy that my lower blue line passes over the northernmost Transmitter mast or not ?
"there was more hit than miss about this arbitrary bombardment"

Offline peterchall

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #342 on: July 30, 2015, 16:05:52 »
Otis, since the whole of your original image appears only 60mm x 40mm on my computer screen, and the towers don’t show even on a print over three times larger, perhaps I could be forgiven for mistaking hut bases for the towers. :)

But I thought we had settled that a few posts back and were discussing the authenticity or otherwise of those six balloons.
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #341 on: July 30, 2015, 09:08:01 »
Attached is another image of today combined with yesteryear at Swingate, courtesy of http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.1399&lon=1.3359&layers=10.  The coordinates in the bottom right are for the northernmost mast.  Also, a link to a photo of the barrage of LZ 62' balloons over Canterbury, published in 1943 and taken from somewhere up towards the University looking down on the city: https://chaucerfieldspicnicsociety.wordpress.com/tag/balloons-over-canterbury/.

Offline otis

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #340 on: July 30, 2015, 08:39:37 »
Peterchall. I have shown blue squares around the 4 mast locations. The upper two have the masts still. The lower two have the 4 corner plinths.

The things you have indicated with red circles, I have shown in zoom. These are hut bases and paths. I think you managed to hit one of the masts.
"there was more hit than miss about this arbitrary bombardment"

Offline peterchall

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #339 on: July 30, 2015, 08:07:45 »
Otis, on the first point I can only repeat that the image you posted – of which my post is a copy – is not the one you describe on Google Maps. So can we agree to put that behind us, please?

I’m sorry that you see me as “knocking” your work, because I see my comments and questions as impersonal input to the discussion. Joe Bloggs has a theory which he publishes for ‘Peer Review’, and in that way the bugs are ironed out and a final conclusion may be reached.

I fully agree that, in light of the work you have put in on that map of the balloon locations, those six balloons in the photo seem to be in the wrong place and must therefore be forged.

I don’t know how accurate 3-figure Cassini Grid References were, or how accurately you could place them on a 1 inch-to-1 mile (1/63360) scale OS map, but I would be surprised if it was less than to the nearest 300 feet.

We are looking for six balloons in pairs spanning a width of 300m (4.8mm on the map). Look to the left along the lower side of the green sightline and there are two pairs of balloons within that distance, one south-east of the city and one north-west of it. Then, depending on the accuracy of their placing on the map, possibly another more widely spaced pair on the other side of the line.

Now move the green line 3000 feet (14.7mm on the map) to its left (that is south-westwards) and those balloons will appear where they are in the photo. To that can be added another 100 feet or so to allow for the wind carrying them from vertically above their winches.

“But 3000 feet (915m) is a long way” I hear you say. It is actually a difference in the angle of the sightline from Cap Gris Nez of 0.86 degrees – or 1-in-67!

Another factor is that it puts the smoke as coming from the city centre rather than out at the Cavalry Barracks.

So accuracy is that critical, and I wouldn’t place a bet either way.
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Offline otis

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Re: Dover barrage balloon mystery
« Reply #338 on: July 29, 2015, 11:55:43 »
Peterchall, in your image you have ringed several concrete hut bases and paths but not the masts.
I explained the current layout in my post of yesterday.

Please understand that my image with the red balloons is an approximation of what the real view would look like. Of course you can try to knock that, but that would be a fair waste of effort.

What is demonstrated by that image is the spacing between the balloon sites. However accurate you imagine the Cassini grids or my plotting of them to be, it is the density of the balloons that is the issue. For the forged image to be real, there needs to be six balloons in a width of 300m. That approximates to the pink circle I drew over the barracks........

Then those six also have to line up as three pairs !  As in the forged image. It just can not happen.
"there was more hit than miss about this arbitrary bombardment"

 

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