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Author Topic: RAF - Australia?  (Read 5189 times)

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Offline HERB COLLECTOR

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2015, 22:47:36 »
Never mind :)

The most well known person to join the RAF under a false name was of course John Hume Ross, aka T E Lawrence (of Arabia).
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Offline mikegunnill

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2015, 08:21:04 »
What evidence do you have that he used a "False" name on sign-up?

The " man " told me, himself and that he flew out of Hornchurch.  Three squadrons there at the time, 41, 222 and 603.  For the correct date I have now checked the records for flights that day,  without success. Not sure where to go to from here, except to try my man again!

regards
Mike

I found out on Saturday, he is well known for "making up stories".  I guess I wanted the story to be true.  I am not sure why people do this.

Thanks and regards to all

Mike
Mike Gunnill

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Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline scoop

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2015, 18:58:35 »
I must admit, I don't know the full extent of what you are researching and I'm not an RAF expert but if you have (or can obtain) the "false" name, then wouldn't looking it up on the British Air force lists for 1940 (or later depending when his deception was uncovered) eliminate or confirm entry into the British RAF?  There are 8 published lists for 1940.  They are digitised and freely available through the National Library of Scotland http://digital.nls.uk/gallery.cfm .

Offline mikegunnill

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2015, 12:40:20 »
What evidence do you have that he used a "False" name on sign-up?

The " man " told me, himself and that he flew out of Hornchurch.  Three squadrons there at the time, 41, 222 and 603.  For the correct date I have now checked the records for flights that day,  without success. Not sure where to go to from here, except to try my man again!

regards
Mike
Mike Gunnill

Upchurch in old picture postcards.
Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline scoop

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2015, 18:40:07 »
What evidence do you have that he used a "False" name on sign-up?

Offline mikegunnill

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2015, 11:33:29 »
Thank you for your message.  I had thought of RAAF Temora but my man was operational in 1940 so he would have had some sort of training early 1940 in Australia.  Not having a name to search for, is making my quest almost impossible.

Thank you again

Mike

I hope this may be of help to you mikegunnill, I feel you could possibly find Temora as a useful place for guidance on research.

RAAF Temora New South Wales, Australia, was the tenth (No. 10) Elementary Flying Training School.  Although set up in 1941, after the 1940 date that you mentioned, it may be of help to you.  The school has been an operational museum for many years and is staffed by a wonderful group of volunteers.  I visited there in 2014 and the staff were very helpful indeed and left me with the impression that if I ever needed to know about WW2 aviation in Australia, that would be the place to go.  Their web site is:

http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/history/index.html

Our guide told us of the pilots who trained on Tiger Moths at Temora, there was a high casualty rate over Kent, once in the unfamiliar Hurricanes and Spitfires.

Also some pictures of the day attached.
Mike Gunnill

Upchurch in old picture postcards.
Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline mikegunnill

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2015, 11:30:01 »
Thank you for your message.  The problem I have is, the "man" is British born but was living in Australia and joined up.  He used a "fake" name and age when he did this, as he wanted to fly and serves country.   At one time, I think he was attached to 41 Squadron flying out of RAF Hornchurch.  He witnessed a crash on a date, and I have researched who was flying from Hornchurch on that afternoon.  I have accounted for all 12 pilots who flew that afternoon, without success.  I am not sure where this leaves me at the moment.  I was hopeful that one of the named pilots would lead me to my " man ".  May be I need to put this research to one side and return to it, after a short break.

Thank you again, I am grateful for all the comments here.


Mike




Would it help to clarify the difference between ‘true’ RAAF squadrons and RAF squadrons manned by Australian personnel?

The former were ‘national’ squadrons in the sense that they were financed by the Australian government although often placed under RAF command. One example in Europe was No 10 Squadron RAAF which flew Sunderlands under the orders of RAF Coastal Command, but only with the approval of the Australian government.

In the latter case it was the intention to man RAF squadrons by personnel of the same nationality, presumably for ‘social cohesion’ reasons. Hence squadron numbers 450 to 467 were intended to be manned by Australians although they were wholly financed by the British government and the title ‘RAAF’ was effectively an ‘honorary’ one.

Of the 17 such squadrons formed (No 465 was never used) 5 were fighter squadrons, 9 were bomber and 3 were ‘coastal’, serving in the UK and overseas.

There were similar arrangements for Canadian (Nos 400 to 445) and New Zealand (Nos 485 to 490) Squadrons, distinct from the squadrons of the ‘national’ air forces. There were exceptions not relevant to this topic.

In the event, due to availability of aircrew not matching vacancies, the segregation by nationality was never wholly achieved, until by the end of the war there was almost no distinction between the national make up of aircrew within squadrons, whatever their national title.

All the information I have ever seen concerns aircrew, but I can find nothing concerning ground-crew. Presumably they were nationals of the place where the squadron was formed – for the Australian ones it was 14 n the UK and 3 in Australia, transferring later to the UK, Middle East or Far East. Does anyone have any details?
Mike Gunnill

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Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline peterchall

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2015, 16:05:36 »
Would it help to clarify the difference between ‘true’ RAAF squadrons and RAF squadrons manned by Australian personnel?

The former were ‘national’ squadrons in the sense that they were financed by the Australian government although often placed under RAF command. One example in Europe was No 10 Squadron RAAF which flew Sunderlands under the orders of RAF Coastal Command, but only with the approval of the Australian government.

In the latter case it was the intention to man RAF squadrons by personnel of the same nationality, presumably for ‘social cohesion’ reasons. Hence squadron numbers 450 to 467 were intended to be manned by Australians although they were wholly financed by the British government and the title ‘RAAF’ was effectively an ‘honorary’ one.

Of the 17 such squadrons formed (No 465 was never used) 5 were fighter squadrons, 9 were bomber and 3 were ‘coastal’, serving in the UK and overseas.

There were similar arrangements for Canadian (Nos 400 to 445) and New Zealand (Nos 485 to 490) Squadrons, distinct from the squadrons of the ‘national’ air forces. There were exceptions not relevant to this topic.

In the event, due to availability of aircrew not matching vacancies, the segregation by nationality was never wholly achieved, until by the end of the war there was almost no distinction between the national make up of aircrew within squadrons, whatever their national title.

All the information I have ever seen concerns aircrew, but I can find nothing concerning ground-crew. Presumably they were nationals of the place where the squadron was formed – for the Australian ones it was 14 n the UK and 3 in Australia, transferring later to the UK, Middle East or Far East. Does anyone have any details?
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Offline jimawilliams

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 09:57:14 »
I hope this may be of help to you mikegunnill, I feel you could possibly find Temora as a useful place for guidance on research.

RAAF Temora New South Wales, Australia, was the tenth (No. 10) Elementary Flying Training School.  Although set up in 1941, after the 1940 date that you mentioned, it may be of help to you.  The school has been an operational museum for many years and is staffed by a wonderful group of volunteers.  I visited there in 2014 and the staff were very helpful indeed and left me with the impression that if I ever needed to know about WW2 aviation in Australia, that would be the place to go.  Their web site is:

http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/history/index.html

Our guide told us of the pilots who trained on Tiger Moths at Temora, there was a high casualty rate over Kent, once in the unfamiliar Hurricanes and Spitfires.

Also some pictures of the day attached.
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Offline mikegunnill

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2015, 16:51:24 »
Thank you Herb Collector, I am grateful.  My man used a false name in Australia to sign up, as he was under aged for service.  This was found out late 1940.  I don't know how I am going to "crack" this one!

Thank you again

Mike


Not sure if the son would be able to sign up for the RAF in Australia, but he would have been able to join the RAF under a Short Service Commission.

From http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/0004.html Paragraph six.

Prior to 1939 when the possibility of war could become a reality, Britain arranged for short service commissions where pilots that had already received basic and fundamental training, could further their experience with flying and combat skills. A number of pilots that undertook this scheme came from Canada and Australia. Many Australian airmen were trained at the RAAF Training School at Point Cook in Victoria, and many took advantage of the offer of a short service commission with the RAF.

   Added edit. In para five of above a Canadian joins the RAF while still in Canada, so the answer would appear to be yes.
 
The Empire Training Scheme came a little later. http://www.awm.gov.au/units/unit_14939.asp
Mike Gunnill

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Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline HERB COLLECTOR

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Re: RAF - Australia?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 21:06:16 »
Not sure if the son would be able to sign up for the RAF in Australia, but he would have been able to join the RAF under a Short Service Commission.

From http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/0004.html Paragraph six.

Prior to 1939 when the possibility of war could become a reality, Britain arranged for short service commissions where pilots that had already received basic and fundamental training, could further their experience with flying and combat skills. A number of pilots that undertook this scheme came from Canada and Australia. Many Australian airmen were trained at the RAAF Training School at Point Cook in Victoria, and many took advantage of the offer of a short service commission with the RAF.

   Added edit. In para five of above a Canadian joins the RAF while still in Canada, so the answer would appear to be yes.
 
The Empire Training Scheme came a little later. http://www.awm.gov.au/units/unit_14939.asp
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Offline mikegunnill

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RAF - Australia?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2015, 09:49:59 »
Grateful of some help.  If a Kent man moves to Australia, (pre WW2 ) would he be able to sign up with the RAF directly in Australia? Or would he have to join via the RAAF?

The father and son emigrated to Australia, and the son, ended up in 1940 flying for the RAF.

Thank you

Mike
Mike Gunnill

Upchurch in old picture postcards.
Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

 

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