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Author Topic: Gray's of Chatham  (Read 24562 times)

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Offline smiffy

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #122 on: February 25, 2017, 23:38:35 »
Final payment next week, then it's mine!

Actually it was a 1964 model M15D, complete with electric starter. I think it's a pretty rare little bike and probably worth a great deal more now than I paid for it then - £45.




Offline Nemo

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #121 on: February 25, 2017, 18:14:24 »
How many instalments do you have left to go?

Offline smiffy

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #120 on: February 25, 2017, 18:04:11 »
Whilst having a rummage I found a few old receipts, this one from Gray's:


Offline peterchall

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #119 on: December 17, 2015, 11:20:16 »
Thanks Lutonman. The problem is where does Gray’s Medway Ltd get its money from?

One thing I can think of is that vehicles taken in part-exchange by Gray’s of Chatham Ltd are passed to Gray’s Medway Ltd for preparation for re-sale, for which it charges Gray’s of Chatham Ltd at a profit. But since that profit goes 80% to Gray’s of Chatham Ltd and 10% to each of Herbert and Donald Gray (who are shareholders in Gray’s of Chatham Ltd anyway) the money is merely going back to where it came from, if that makes sense.

Are there any accountants among us who can see any advantage in that arrangement?

Also, there is another pebble in the pond. Entering ‘Grays Medway’ into Nemo’s companycheck.co.uk link produces TWO Gray’s Medway Ltd, the first being the one dealt with above and the second being described as a non-limited business, which is a contradiction – how can a non-limited business have limited liability?

The second result shows the business to be ‘Active’ with number L41463458 and an address of 25 High Street, Chatham (ie:- Gray’s Used Car Centre!). It is engaged in ‘Renting and leasing of Cars and light motor vehicles’, and its Senior Executive is Don Gray! Being non-limited it has fewer legal obligations, and there are no financial details stated to give an idea of the scale of its activities. Furthermore, an internet search, Yellow Pages, etc shows no car hire organisation operating from that address!

Perhaps a bold assertion, but there seems to be an error. Would two enterprises of the same name be permitted from the same address, even if one was a limited company and the other apparently a sole proprietorship?
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Offline Lutonman

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #118 on: December 15, 2015, 20:21:05 »
Peterchall,
It looks to me that the profits of Gray's Medway Ltd are wholly taken up by Gray's of Chatham who are the parent company. I would expect this is for legal and financial reasons..

Offline peterchall

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #117 on: December 15, 2015, 12:49:09 »
Let’s try to continue this thread to its conclusion.

No matter how the set-up is approached - Googling Gray’s Medway Ltd, or Gray’s Used Car Centre etc, it leads eventually to Gray’s of Chatham website, updated with Christmas Greetings, so obviously active. It shows it to be the ‘customer facing’ part of the organisation, so if I go into Grays Used Car Centre and buy a car, my contract is with Gray’s of Chatham Ltd.

No list of garages offering servicing and repairs in Chatham includes Gray’s Medway Ltd, so its authorised activity of ‘Maintenance and Repair of Motor Vehicles’ seems to be redundant – it is not a ‘garage’ in the commonly recognised sense. It does not sell vehicles directly to the public – it does not even have its own website. Yet it has a current income and its financial situation is: Net Worth = £625k; Assets = £641k; Issued Share Capital = £200k (Equivalent figures for Gray’s of Chatham are £1.6m, £1.6m, £40k).

So what does Gray’s Medway Ltd actually do to earn its money? Any ideas, even if only theoretical ones?
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Offline peterchall

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #116 on: December 13, 2015, 16:36:33 »
It seems that Gray’s only presence in the Medway Towns now is Gray’s Used Car Centre at 25 to 33 High Street, Chatham - the open space to the east of the Taste of China.

As well as being the ‘working site’ of Gray’s of Chatham Ltd (its Registered Office is still 1st Floor, 9 High Street, Chatham) it is also the ‘working site' of Gray’s Medway Ltd (also with Registered Office at 1st Floor, 9 High Street, Chatham), with Don and Herbert Gray as directors as previously described. Again using Nemo’s link it reveals shares to be held 10% by each of Don and Herbert and 80% by Gray’s of Chatham Ltd. The Nature of Business of both is the ‘Sale of New and Used Cars and Light Motor Vehicles’, with ‘Maintenance and Repair of Motor Vehicles’ for Gray’s of Chatham Ltd only.

Which raises a couple of questions:
1.   Is Gray’s of Chatham Ltd open for vehicle servicing to the general public, or only for preparation of vehicles for re-sale for both companies?
2.   If I go into Gray’s Used Car Centre and choose a new or used car, who sells it to me, Gray’s of Chatham Ltd or Gray’s Medway Ltd? It makes no difference to me, but it does affect the way the income is divided among the shareholders. Can anyone, with business experience or otherwise, see any reason for such a set-up?
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Offline peterchall

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #115 on: December 10, 2015, 12:21:38 »
I’ve been using Nemo’s link – above – to look at Norman Gray Ltd, the real estate branch of the Gray empire, based at Uckfield and the owner of 1-19 High Street, Chatham – the main subject of this thread, between the Sir Johhn Hawkin’s Hospital and the Taste of China.

Currently its liabilities and assets are both zero, and its net worth is zero compared to £391k two years ago. So, despite being listed as ‘Active’, it seems to have ceased trading.

Of its directors, Don Gray and Herbert Gray resigned on 21st August 2015 and Anna Gray on 1st November 2015. Anna Gray became Secretary on that date, leaving Susan Groves as sole director holding a total share capital of £100.

Time-wise that corresponds with the moving of Medway Hyundai to Rainham before September 2015 and the moving in to 1-19 High Street of Humphries and Parks Ltd. It strongly suggests that the site is now owned by Humphries and Parks Holdings Ltd, based in Medway Maritime and Gray’s connection with that site is finally severed after at least 60 years.
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Offline peterchall

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #114 on: December 09, 2015, 14:57:18 »
Great stuff, Nemo :)
So there does seem to be another generation to take over.

Interestingly, under Directors, they were all appointed on 21st February 1991. Could that have been when Don Gray Snr died and shares and directorships were re-distributed? In which case it would be more correct to say they were re-appointed.

Does anyone have anyny idea what the figures in the Current, Resigned, Total columns in that section mean?
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #113 on: December 09, 2015, 08:51:55 »
All the companies are private limited companies, so the shareholders can only sell or leave the shares to persons authorized by the Memorandum of Association. So unless there is another generation-in-waiting, the name of Gray’s may soon cease to exist among Kent businesses  - truly the end of an era.
And lo: https://companycheck.co.uk/company/00565476/GRAYS-OF-CHATHAM-LIMITED/group-structure

Offline peterchall

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #112 on: December 08, 2015, 20:39:25 »
Don could well have had a daughter, so not necessarily your mistake.

Full details are at Reply#57
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Offline Ajemp

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #111 on: December 08, 2015, 20:00:40 »
Once again your research has revealed more about the Grays. I am surprised to hear that Norman is at the  grand old age of 96  and at the same address. 
I thought Don had a daughter, my mistake. An interesting family nonetheless.


Offline peterchall

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #110 on: December 08, 2015, 17:46:04 »
According to Companies House website - freely available to all by Googling, so we are not revealing family secrets – Norman Gray, aged 96 in 2015, is a resigned director, with home address as stated. Donald Gray Snr is not listed.

So I assume that ex-directors are still listed while living and a shareholder, so Norman is still alive but Don is deceased.

The other current Directors are:
Anna Gray, aged 91 and, judging from the address, the widow of Donald.
Herbert Gray, aged 67, same address, so presumably a son of Don and Anna.
Donald Gray, aged 65. Address in Thanet. Could be a son of Don or Norman.

Herbert is Secretary of Gray’s of Chatham Ltd.
Donald is Secretary of Gray’s Medway Ltd (ex-Grayhire) and Gray’s of Sittingbourne Ltd.

All the companies are private limited companies, so the shareholders can only sell or leave the shares to persons authorized by the Memorandum of Association. So unless there is another generation-in-waiting, the name of Gray’s may soon cease to exist among Kent businesses  - truly the end of an era.

Now that Grayhire is Gray's Medway Ltd, with no authority to hire out vehicles, what could be the point of continuing its existence alongside Gray's of Chatham Ltd.?
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Offline Ajemp

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #109 on: December 08, 2015, 12:14:12 »
Just a final P.S. on Don and Norman; Don lived on the Chatham Maidstone Road, just above St Stevens Church. He moved to Spain at sometime, but kept an apartment in Rochester where CAVs were, overlooking the river. When he came back for a visit he looked me up to do a service on his car,a Ford Fiesta, a practicable car to have when home.
Norman lived in a big house on Hunters Way called Hunters Lodge. He approached me in about 1975 to offer me the position of manager of Grayhire, but the wages were not compatible with what I was earning at the time, with a wife and three children, I'm afraid money dictated then, but who knows what's around the corner?
I can only assume that they have passed away and left  it all to Herbert and Donald.

Offline peterchall

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Re: Gray's of Chatham
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2015, 22:40:47 »
Thanks for the compliment Ajemp, but research isn’t possible without input from others, helped by a bit of argument to suggest new trees to bark up.

In this case all I’ve done is to copy from Companies House website and put that and information supplied by yourself and others into a time-line

Apologies to anyone who’s input I didn’t acknowledge, notably LynL’s discovery of the new occupants of the site, at Reply#89. Sorry LynL :)

There’s scope for more yet – see my questions. :)
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