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Author Topic: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940  (Read 40569 times)

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Offline CAT

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #219 on: March 11, 2016, 21:12:36 »
Think JW may have something in regards to the chimney cowl. Having looked at the footage over again I wonder if JW's illustration second from the left could be the one instead of it being a large bird?

In regards to the cats and cows debate, I have a reference to some of the earlier bombings as hitting a farm on the outskirts of Canterbury?

Offline otis

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #218 on: March 10, 2016, 13:22:39 »
Below image from Social History of Canterbury by Audrey Bateman. Cats but no cows.

Does anyone have access to Cityark or similar so we could view the exact entries from Kentish Gazette ?
"there was more hit than miss about this arbitrary bombardment"

Online JohnWalker

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #217 on: March 08, 2016, 23:38:49 »
Can't add anything to the numbering but I do believe those 'big birds' are chimney cowls. 
They use to fascinate me as a kid and that design was used all over Canterbury.  Might
have been a local design,

Offline otis

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #216 on: March 08, 2016, 20:28:18 »
Looking at Britain from Above, 2 is certainly part of Canon Crum's house.

Also if you draw a line from Iron Bar Lane junction to the Cathedral clock face it passes through 21a and 21b Burgate. So in order to have the view below both those buildings must be demolished. I had to extend Cat's bomb map but got a little messy. I don't suppose a wider original is available?
"there was more hit than miss about this arbitrary bombardment"

Offline Nemo

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #215 on: March 08, 2016, 13:49:51 »
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that 1, 2 and 3 are all part of Canon Crumm's house and that 4 is no.12.

Offline otis

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #214 on: March 08, 2016, 10:20:20 »
Can anyone identify the red numbered buildings behind Burgate below?

If 1 - perched bird is on Canon Crum's house is then 2 part of the same house ?

What are 3 and 4?
"there was more hit than miss about this arbitrary bombardment"

Offline otis

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #213 on: March 07, 2016, 18:11:11 »

Accounts written after the event as a result of professional research should be more reliable than ‘on the day’ accounts, or accounts written from 65+ year old memories.


So what source should those authors have used ?

Anyone going to Canterbury to look up archives may or may not find a short-cut in the following books ?

Dean Hewlett Johnson, describes the bomb damage to the Deanery in one of the press articles. He has written an autobiography and may describe more?

Margaret Sparks, has written a book Canterbury Cathedral Precincts, which describes the buildings there and their history.
"there was more hit than miss about this arbitrary bombardment"

Offline HERB COLLECTOR

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #212 on: March 07, 2016, 00:30:56 »
I have identified the line of chimneys on which the big bird is sitting in the British Pathé video as belonging to the 'south wing' of Cannon Crumm's house. thus showing that the bomb referred to by CAT was dropped later.
The demolished shops shown in the video would be Nos 20, 19, 18 and maybe No 17, with the front of No.18 (or 17) still, just, standing.
I have pinned Cannon Crumm's house on Britain from Above @ http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw013271?search=Canterbury&ref=14

Offline Nemo

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #211 on: March 06, 2016, 20:28:40 »
The snag is that there can be flaws in any account, from an 'at the time account' tailored for a particular audience, through a memory distorted with age, to a more recent analysis that repeats earlier flaws or which didn't have access to records with something to contribute.  Personally I think all should be treated cum grano salis.  Look at the photographs one inherits from ones parents - the who, where and when so often lost to history.  On this forum we have had images that don't match their captions and sayings for which there is no definitive origin or meaning.
For what it's worth, I recall it being said on this thread that it took days to dig out the dead - happily not an activity I've undertaken, so whether it argues for or against a large bomb, I know not.

Online JohnWalker

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #210 on: March 06, 2016, 20:16:25 »
To gain access to the cathedral archives you will need to apply for a readers ticket/pass, which can be done at the archive reception tucked in the entrance of the archives round the back of the cloisters (accessed between the cloisters and the dark entry if you know the precincts well?). You will be asked to fill in a simple form and supply two(?) passport type photos. In the past this was free facility, and I think it still is. Following getting your readers ticket/pass you may have to book a slot at a table to first view the archive accession book, which possesses all their collections with a specific reference/accession code. You will then have to request to view the required item with a simple request form and book a table for another time/date dependant on how busy they are. Thirdly, turn up on your requested date and the item will be made available to view. Sounds complicated, but once you are familiar its quite simple. The archive staff are very helpful and will guide you through the entire process. Hope this helps JohnWalker?

The two reference codes I supplied in my previous post are the accession reference codes (CCA-U436/7 and CCA-U436/12) within the Williamson archives.

It is worth mentioning that the accession lists can be view online at the cathedral archive website, which can save a lot of sitting at a table looking through books full of lists.

Happy hunting

Many thanks for the information CAT.  I'll follow up on that within the next week.

JW

Offline CAT

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #209 on: March 06, 2016, 18:53:44 »
To gain access to the cathedral archives you will need to apply for a readers ticket/pass, which can be done at the archive reception tucked in the entrance of the archives round the back of the cloisters (accessed between the cloisters and the dark entry if you know the precincts well?). You will be asked to fill in a simple form and supply two(?) passport type photos. In the past this was free facility, and I think it still is. Following getting your readers ticket/pass you may have to book a slot at a table to first view the archive accession book, which possesses all their collections with a specific reference/accession code. You will then have to request to view the required item with a simple request form and book a table for another time/date dependant on how busy they are. Thirdly, turn up on your requested date and the item will be made available to view. Sounds complicated, but once you are familiar its quite simple. The archive staff are very helpful and will guide you through the entire process. Hope this helps JohnWalker?

The two reference codes I supplied in my previous post are the accession reference codes (CCA-U436/7 and CCA-U436/12) within the Williamson archives.

It is worth mentioning that the accession lists can be view online at the cathedral archive website, which can save a lot of sitting at a table looking through books full of lists.

Happy hunting

Online JohnWalker

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #208 on: March 06, 2016, 18:02:24 »
Thanks for your info CAT - What is the correct procedure for gaining access to the cathedral archives and then the actual information one is searching for?

Offline CAT

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #207 on: March 06, 2016, 17:39:25 »
It might be worth looking towards the cathedral archives for a more reliable first witness account under the Williamson archives? J.  J. Williamson was not only an influential businessman at the time, he also served as Canterbury mayor, but more importantly his archive includes reports of the air raid wardens, civil defence auxiliary, fire service, police war reseserve, first police reserve (CCA-U436/7) and including reporting of the bombings (CCA-U436/12)?

Offline peterchall

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #206 on: March 06, 2016, 17:21:44 »
That is the point Otis. From all the conflicting accounts we can construct many scenarios, and if we assume that the author meant something different to what he wrote then we can construct any scenario we like.

Accounts written after the event as a result of professional research should be more reliable than ‘on the day’ accounts, or accounts written from 65+ year old memories.

Now that we know that the large bomb behind No 20 didn’t necessarily fall on 11th October it’s worth a revisit to HERB COLLECTOR’S Reply#164.

In the opening video, from 0:00 to 0:24, and judging by the alignment of the cathedral’s western towers, the cameraman is looking north across the western end of the destroyed terrace. (See my Reply#109) The bird on the chimney is visible towards the right through a window.

At 0:24 to 0:34 the bird is now on the left of the view and the eastern side of the cathedral central tower can just be seen. A line projected southwards from that crosses the destroyed eastern end of the terrace – including the furrier’s at No 18 – and is opposite Iron Bar Lane. So the cameraman has changed his position.

Thus we are back to an earlier scenario of a 50kg bomb at each end of the terrace and a third one in the cathedral precincts. It fits the casualty pattern and the account in Front Line County. I posted a complete list of that book’s sources and don’t understand why its account seems to be discredited.

The large bomb could have fallen during the raid of 17th October and Vera’s account fits that better.
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Offline CAT

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Re: Hit and Run Attack on Canterbury. 11 October 1940
« Reply #205 on: March 05, 2016, 15:47:54 »
Hi Peterchall. Unfortunately I cannot say 100 percent as to the exact date of the bomb that destroyed the north side, only to say that some of the contemporary images released to the newspapers of the time show Dean Hewlett Johnson inspecting the damage on the north side in 1940. The popular image of the shock damaged buildings on the south side is also attributed to the same time suggesting they both show the aftermath of the same event (the bomb damage in Burgage Street of 1940)? This would suggest that the images of the destruction that spanned from St George's Street through to the south side of Burgage Street was the result of the 1942 bombing, which was assumed to have been mainly incendiaries?

 

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