News:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: What does Ber, mean?  (Read 8016 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nemo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 287
  • Appreciation 15
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2016, 12:05:09 »
John Booth’s Will is available from the NA but, alas, doesn’t give any property addresses he may have had.  Originally made on 24th April 1832, it left to:

-   Sophia Caroline Booth (wife): £300
-   John Pound Booth (son): £300 when he attained 25 years
-   Daniel John Pound (son of SCB by her former husband Henry Pound): £200 when he attained 25 years; plus
-   Sophia Caroline Booth: interest from money in Public Funds and other monies during her life
-   John Pound Booth: £600 upon her decease and his attaining 25 years
-   Daniel John Pound: £400 upon her decease and his attaining 25 years
-   (any single survivor of the two boys getting the other’s additional sum).

A Codicil was added on 25th March 1833 in ‘consideration of the bad state of my wife Sophia Caroline Booth’s health and in consequence of the lamented death of my son John Pound Booth’; it gave to Sophia for her sole use the sum (sic) bequeathed to John Pound Booth.  The Will and Codicil were proved in London on 26th April 1833.

Offline grandarog

  • Established Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Appreciation 101
  • RAF Halton 1957-1960
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2016, 12:00:50 »
Thanks for the update Mike .The KAS site is back on line now,as you say he didn't get that Cemetery . Good luck with your search .Keep us in the loop please. :)

Offline mikegunnill

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 136
  • Appreciation 3
    • The Upchurch Collection
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2016, 10:42:03 »
Grandarog:


Your man Leland L. Duncan didn't cover St John's churchyard.  Someone called Carl Vivash did in 2006, but all the links and his email address don't work.  He does say on the web site that he has 300 recorded grave inscriptions.  I have found a Mr Vivash in Ramsgate and have written to him.  Not sure of course that he is the correct person.

Mike
Mike Gunnill

Upchurch in old picture postcards.
Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline grandarog

  • Established Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Appreciation 101
  • RAF Halton 1957-1960
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2016, 14:33:26 »
As you state Mike the stone does not show Ber 19th and as the transcriber couldn't get the name correct maybe it wasn't there. From the amount of surface that has spalled away between the top and bottom of what`s left, I would say there was an awful lot more written there.There was a list of Memorial inscriptions on line compiled by a chap Leland L. Duncan at the end of the 19th century on the Kent Archaeological Research page but it seems to have disappeared . Hopefully if any one can access it the full inscription was recorded.

Offline mikegunnill

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 136
  • Appreciation 3
    • The Upchurch Collection
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2016, 11:59:03 »
MG:  hang on a sec, the first (and now only) inscription for Sophia has her forenames round the correct way.

It would appear that the inscription was copied down wrongly.  As Nemo says, at the top of the gravestone Mrs Booth's name is correct.
Mike Gunnill

Upchurch in old picture postcards.
Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline mikegunnill

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 136
  • Appreciation 3
    • The Upchurch Collection
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2016, 11:55:11 »
MG:  hang on a sec, the first (and now only) inscription for Sophia has her forenames round the correct way.

The inscription says Caroline Sophia Booth.  Her name was Sophia Caroline Booth.  Is this what you mean Nemo?

Mike Gunnill

Upchurch in old picture postcards.
Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline Nemo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 287
  • Appreciation 15
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2016, 11:45:23 »
mikegunnill:  hang on a sec, the first (and now only) inscription for Sophia has her forenames round the correct way.

Offline mikegunnill

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 136
  • Appreciation 3
    • The Upchurch Collection
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2016, 11:30:55 »
Grandarog:

Perhaps I was a little hasty, sorry about this.  Could we revisit the topic of the gravestone?????

Do you think there was a mention to Turner on the family gravestone?  I can think ( now ), of no further explanation.

This is the full inscription again:  ‘Sacred to the memory of John Pound Booth, the beloved and only son of John and Caroline Sophia Booth, who died June 26th 1832 in the 7th year of his age.

Sacred to the memory of John Booth, Gentleman, who died Ber 19th. Sacred to the memory of Caroline Sophia Booth, relict of the above named John Booth, died June 15th 1878 aged 80 years.’


Little John Pound Booth first to die June 26th 1832 aged 6.  Then his father and second husband of Sophia Caroline Booth dies John Booth ( 1762-1833 ) although his death date is not mentioned.  As requested when Mrs Booth she is returned to Margate and the same grave.

a) Mention of Turner's death ?
b) No mention of death date of John Booth
c) Mrs Booth's name is wrong. **( inscription wrongly copied down )

Hopefully a picture is attached to this post.  It must have been photographed a few years ago, as the gravestone is now much worse.  The top layer of stone with the inscription is slowly dropping away.

So after perhaps my hasty reply, I would be grateful if I could throw this back and kindly ask for comments.

regards

Mike

Mike Gunnill

Upchurch in old picture postcards.
Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline mikegunnill

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 136
  • Appreciation 3
    • The Upchurch Collection
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2016, 19:58:44 »
Grandarog:

I like your theory but who would inscribe the gravestone with Turners name.  Mrs Booth made it clear to her son, Daniel she wanted to return to Margate and what she called the family grave.  As she joked, " there is very little chance I can be buried alongside Mr Turner.

I tried to send a photograph today without success.  Not that the gravestone shows the line I was asking about. The gravestone in Margate is in very poor condition, which is a great shame.  I am a photographer and I couldn't make the image upload work.  It is time I retired, I think.

Thank you Grandarog and everyone else.  This forum is willing to help, I am very grateful.  No further forward but grateful ;)

regards to all


Mike
Mike Gunnill

Upchurch in old picture postcards.
Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline grandarog

  • Established Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Appreciation 101
  • RAF Halton 1957-1960
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2016, 21:22:34 »
I still think the gravestone probably had the inscription commemorating Turners death on Decem Ber 19 th 1851 as he was Sophie Caroline's partner when he died. As it was regarded as a scandalous relationship, the family members most likely disapproved, so when she died much later in 1878 it was erased and her 2nd husband, John Booth's name inscribed over the space leaving just the Ber and 19th showing still.

Offline mikegunnill

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 136
  • Appreciation 3
    • The Upchurch Collection
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2016, 21:14:01 »


It was one of the first things I tried, but none of the dates fit in. Thank you for the suggestion, it all helps!

regards
Mike

Just a casual observation. Each of the four calendar months that contain the sequential letters "ber", occur consecutively at the end of the year ( SeptemBer, OctoBer, NovemBer, DecemBer.)  If it was the case that someone died in the last four months of a year, yet uncertain which particular month, could somebodies logic justify representing this with missing letters followed by “Ber”?  I appreciated that this suggestion is a long stretch, however who knows what logic or reasoning people adopt.
Mike Gunnill

Upchurch in old picture postcards.
Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline jimawilliams

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Appreciation 5
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2016, 21:06:16 »
Just a casual observation. Each of the four calendar months that contain the sequential letters "ber", occur consecutively at the end of the year ( SeptemBer, OctoBer, NovemBer, DecemBer.)  If it was the case that someone died in the last four months of a year, yet uncertain which particular month, could somebodie`s logic justify representing this with missing letters followed by “Ber”?  I appreciated that this suggestion is a long stretch, however who knows what logic or reasoning people adopt.
"Change is the only constant"

Offline mikegunnill

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 136
  • Appreciation 3
    • The Upchurch Collection
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2016, 20:23:06 »
Yes this is the inscription I mentioned and the " Ber ".  Still not clear what it refers to!  The present grave has now lost most of the quoted inscription.  As you can tell. Son, John Pound Booth died aged 6, followed by father John Booth a few months later. When Sophia died in Buckinghamshire she was "returned" to Margate and the family grave.  I don't think there is any reference to JMW Turner on the gravestone, unless I have missed it.  It now appears that Turner/Booth spent at least five years in Deal, they had to leave Margate because of gossip. Trying to locate where they lived is difficult, to say the least.  Thank you all for your help and interest.  Any clues on Turner living in Deal, please??????

BOOTH
Sacred to the memory of John Pound Booth, the beloved and only son of John and Caroline Sophia Booth, who died June 26th 1832 in the 7th year of his age.
Sacred to the memory of John Booth, Gentleman, who died >>>>>Ber 19th. Sacred to the memory of Caroline Sophia Booth, relict of the above named John Booth, died June 15th, 1878 aged 80 years.

http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=19007.0


Kind regards

Mike
Mike Gunnill

Upchurch in old picture postcards.
Otterham Kent - Your Heritage.

Offline grandarog

  • Established Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Appreciation 101
  • RAF Halton 1957-1960
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2016, 16:18:17 »
As nemo says there are variations of names, ie When married to Johjn Booth her name is shown as Sophie Caroline Pound (hence sons Middle name).

Heres a few more bits gleaned from the net to pad the story out a bit. None of which explain the inscription, unless of course the original engraving of JMW Turners death on the stone was erased and over-written at the request of the Booth family, which is only supposition and my opinion.

JMW Turner lived in Margate from the age of 11, latterly in dubious circumstances with a certain Mrs Booth in a house where Turner Contemporary now stands.
Turner’s relationship with his landlady Mrs Booth (now immortalised by the shell lady at the end of Margate’s Harbour Arm) was clearly special to him - he even called himself ‘Mr Booth’ after the death of her husband.

Mrs Booth’s seafront guest house on Cold Harbour at Rendezvous, where Turner stayed when visiting the town, was originally situated on the same site where our gallery has been built.

Artistic inspiration aside, Turner had another motive for regularly returning to Margate – his landlady-turned-lover, Mrs Booth. In Mr Turner she is a reassuring, down-to-earth presence, but when I find her at the end of the Harbour Arm, she is an assertive, nine-foot-high bronze. Ann Carrington created the sculpture as an overgrown version of Margate’s kiss-me-quick “shell lady” souvenirs – with a scallop-shaped crinoline and bonnet. Seagulls whirr and caw overhead as Mrs Booth gazes eternally out to sea. She and Turner lived together, moving to Chelsea in 1846 until his death in 1851.

 He loved the views of sea and sky from the windows of that house – and also the attentions of its landlady, a sailor’s widow called Sophia Booth. For 20 years they were companions, finally living together in Chelsea, where he adopted the name of Admiral Booth to avoid a scandal.

As Turner grew older, he became more eccentric. He had few close friends except for his father, who lived with him for 30 years and worked as his studio assistant. His father's death in 1829 had a profound effect on him, and thereafter he was subject to bouts of depression. He never married but had a relationship with an older widow, Sarah Danby. He is believed to have been the father of her two daughters born in 1801 and 1811.[21]

Later he had a relationship with Sophia Caroline Booth, after her second husband died, living for about 18 years as 'Mr Booth' in her house in Chelsea. [22]

Offline grandarog

  • Established Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Appreciation 101
  • RAF Halton 1957-1960
Re: What does Ber, mean?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2016, 15:50:38 »
That is what puzzled me .Why would the reference to the 19 Dec death of Turner be on the Gravestone of John and Caroline. Any ideas Mike.
They are at Margate.

 

BloQcs design by Bloc
SMF 2.0.11 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines