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Author Topic: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel  (Read 769 times)

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Offline wightboy

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2017, 10:38:24 »
I think online searches have revealed all that they're going to.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/registration-merchant-ships/#5-early-records-of-ships

Yes, I think you are right.  I will keep searching and will post an update if/when I can find more information.  Thanks for everyone's help.

Offline Bilgerat

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2017, 06:16:29 »
I think online searches have revealed all that they're going to. If you're determined to find out about the John and Phoebe, the hard work starts now. This page on the National Archive website would be useful for you.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/registration-merchant-ships/#5-early-records-of-ships
"I did not say that the French will not come, I said they will not come by sea" - Lord St Vincent

Offline wightboy

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2017, 11:56:29 »
A fascinating thread and thanks to all who are "digging". It never ceases to amaze me just how much information there is out there, if we only know where to "dig".
One question comes to mind, was /is Queenborough a port of registry or simply the Port wherein the ship was owned, irrespective of where it was registered?

The only reference I have seen so far was in the newspaper report from the Hampshire Chronicle, dated Monday December 29 1806. The report was on the sinking of the John & Phoebe -

Copied as it was written-

On Tuesday night last, the John and Phoebe, of Queensborough, Edward Strains, master, laden with stone, and bound to London, sunk in Colwell Bay, nearly apposite to Hurst Castle; the wind blew very hard, and it was with the utmost difficulty the crew were saved.

It does say QUEENSBOROUGH with the S, but best guess is that it was Queenborough. I suspect it was her home port.   I have contacted Queenborough Museum but they were not able to help at all.

Offline mikeb

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2017, 11:20:04 »
A fascinating thread and thanks to all who are "digging". It never ceases to amaze me just how much information there is out there, if we only know where to "dig".
One question comes to mind, was /is Queenborough a port of registry or simply the Port wherein the ship was owned, irrespective of where it was registered?

Offline Bilgerat

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2017, 21:43:46 »
It's a definite maybe. As I've explained before in other articles, details about merchant vessels are very few and far between. The loss of the John & Phoebe was not a major disaster, her crew was saved albeit with difficulty. The American one taken by the French had been returned to American owners fairly quickly, as she was back running to Liverpool by 1799 and appeared in the Lloyds Register every year thereafter except 1806.

The one taken by a St. Malo privateer in 1781 we only know about because the taking was reported in newspapers and in Lloyds List. She may have been the same vessel which sank in 1806 and found her way back into British ownership after having been taken. I think I've stated earlier that the sunken John & Phoebe doesn't appear in Lloyds Lists or on the Lloyds Register.

The sunken one was actually lost on the night of the 16th December 1806, in Colwell Bay, Isle of Wight, opposite Hurst Castle on the mainland, at the far west entrance to the Solent.
"I did not say that the French will not come, I said they will not come by sea" - Lord St Vincent

Offline Nemo

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2017, 21:24:22 »
Does this suggest that there were three vessels with the same name? The one taken by the French in 1781, the American one taken by the French in 1797, and the one that sank in 1806?

Offline Bilgerat

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2017, 19:52:38 »
Well, I found the American 'John & Phoebe' in the Lloyds Register of Shipping between 1799 and 1807. She was a ship of 287 tons, oak-built from New England. She was a single-decked ship with beams - meaning that she was spar-decked, carrying cargo below decks and secured to the upper deck. She was surveyed for the Lloyds Register at Liverpool and found to be in A1 condition. By ship, I mean ship-rigged, three masted, with square sails on all three masts.

The ship doesn't appear on the 1806 Register but re-appears in 1807. The confirms that the wreck you've found is not the American vessel.
"I did not say that the French will not come, I said they will not come by sea" - Lord St Vincent

Offline wightboy

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2017, 19:39:48 »
Thanks again for all the excellent information and more ideas for further research!

Offline Bilgerat

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 19:15:12 »
This is getting interesting. I think the American connection is a different vessel. There are a couple of reasons for thinking this:

1) Queens in New York State wasn't recognised as a borough until 1897 and even then, is still referred to as just 'Queens'.

2) The French privateer La Victorine which took the American John & Phoebe and which in turn was captured by HMS Santa Margarita off the Irish coast was based out of Nantes, whereas the one which took the John & Phoebe off the Lizard was based out of St. Malo (or St Marloes as it was known at the time). Also, the John & Phoebe taken by La Victorine wouldn't have been the coasting vessel described by wightboy if she was on passage between Liverpool and New York.

Another point which I'm surprised nobody has picked up on is that the John & Phoebe was taken by a French privateer in 1781, but was back under British ownership by 1806. Again, I'm not certain this was the same vessel. Merchant vessels then, like those of today, existed to make their owners money and for no other purpose. Therefore, the money spent by the owners on maintenance and repairs would have been the absolute minimum the they could get away with. After all, then as today, vessels not actually carrying cargoes at sea are not making any money. What I'm getting at is that the lifespan of a merchant vessel was less than that of a warship, so the chances of a merchant vessel captured by a privateer in 1781 still being around twenty-five years later are slim.

So, answers to the original questions, as far as we know at the moment:

1) Is here any record of the vessel at Queenborough? - There might be and enough digging in the right places, we might find something. Lloyds List is the best bet.

2) Where, when and by which yard was she built? - As above.

3) What type of vessel was she? The dimensions given relate to a vessel between 60 and 80 feet in length. Again, that could be anything, but it points to a coasting vessel rather then an ocean-going one. In which case, she could have been anything from a single-masted sloop or hoy, possibly a small brig or brigantine.

4) Who was the owner? - more digging required

5) Edw Strains would have been her Master at the time she foundered. If he was not the owner, he could only have been an employee of the owner.

6) Already answered (I think).

7) Would there be a record of their returning to Queenborough after the sinking? I doubt it, unless it's reported on in one of the local papers.

8) Is there a record of the vessel being used or hired by the Royal Navy. Probably - I expect a day spent in the National Archive might turn up an invoice from her owners to the Navy Board or the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty.
"I did not say that the French will not come, I said they will not come by sea" - Lord St Vincent

Offline Nemo

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2017, 15:39:25 »
A further reference appears in The French Assault on American Shipping: 1793 - 1813, Greg H Williams and which is visible on Google Books:

John and Pheobe:  ship, Elisha Dyer master, David Westcott mate. Departed Liverpool in 1797.  Seized by the French privateer La Victorie on July 20.  Six American sailors were taken off and pressed: the mate and able seamen Joseph Westcott, Ebenezer Banks, Storos Aray, Thomas Truman and Samuel Weaver.  They all returned to New York City on September 4. 

Could this indicate Queensborough rather than Queenborough?

Offline Nemo

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 13:47:40 »
The 1781 and 1797 papers...  It's enough to make you want to talk with a lifp!

Offline Nemo

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 21:36:28 »
Right. Edwarrd was in the Hampshire Telegraph Monday 22.12.1806 and Edw in the Morning Advertiser Tuesday 23.12.1806.

Offline Nemo

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2017, 21:30:20 »
Indeed you may, but I'm going to dodge the question for just a moment until I clear an exact search of BNA based on 'John and Pheobe'. This provides hits back to 1781, including (possibly) a taking off the Lizard and, in 1797, suggestions that she was an American ship - but I haven't as yet seen the papers with mk1 eyeball. See Dublin Evening Post 19.4.1781 and Derbyshire Mercury and others 24.8.1797 respectively.  Back in a mo'.

Offline wightboy

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 19:20:06 »
I make the foundering Tuesday 23rd December 1806, but two other papers have it as the week earlier. One gives the master as Edwarrd (sic) M Strains.

Thanks for that, can I ask in which newspapers you found these?

Offline Nemo

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Re: HELP ! information sought for QUEENBOROUGH vessel
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2017, 21:23:35 »
I make the foundering Tuesday 23rd December 1806, but two other papers have it as the week earlier. One gives the master as Edwarrd (sic) M Strains.

 

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