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Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2013, 13:39:40 »
Treasury to War Office

The Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty’s Treasury have received from their Solicitor a draft of the proposed agreement between the Secretary of State of War and the Brennan Torpedo Company, Limited, and others, correcting up to (at least) the 16th instant, and (as they understand) in the form last approached on behalf of the Secretary of State; and with reference to your letter of the 13th ultimo*, I am to request you to lay before the Marquis of Hartington the following remarks upon the draft in that shape:-

1.   The consideration to be given for the payment of 5,000l. is in part prospective – viz., the execution of certain agreements.  There is, moreover, the possibility of Brennan’s veraciously striking work after the money has been paid.  Both these points tell against the immediate and unconditional payment of the sum in question; and my Lords would have thought that at least the payment of 1,000l. out of this total might be deferred until the agreements were completed.
The opinion which the Secretary of State may entertain of Brennan’s desire to fulfil his engagements is the most important factor in deciding this point.

2.   My Lords would have thought it desirable to provide more clearly a mode of purchase in the case of the Secretary of State ultimately deciding to buy.  Article 9 of the Draft Agreement gives him a right of pre-emption, upon terms to be settled at the time, but such a provision would be of little value in the case of an excessive price being demanded.

3.   In spite of the opinion expressed in your letter under reply, my Lords still think that it might be well that an agreement of such importance and difficulty should be settled by the Law Officers of the Crown, especially as the whole subject would doubtless have to be referred to them in the event of any legal questions arising on the Agreement.

My Lords have thus expressed the difficulties they feel with regard to this matter in its financial aspect.  But should the Secretary of State consider that he has other reasons sufficient to outweigh these objections, my Lords are content that their views should remain on record, for such reference hereafter as circumstances may suggest, without further insisting upon them as the present time.

*   The letter of 13th December 1882 submitted Draft Agreement as it stood at that date, for Treasury’s concurrence.

Minutes as under were recorded on this paper:-

Lord Morley to Secretary of State, 29th January 1883.

The Treasury letter practically assents to the proposed arrangement, but throws the responsibility on you.  It is now for your decision.  The facts of the case are given in the enclosed memorandum.

The Treasury call attention to three points:-

1.   I do not think that there is any reason to fear that Mr. Brennan will strike – and if he does, and the suggestion of the Treasury were adopted, we should only save 1,000l.  Mr Brennan informs me that, if required, he would deposit half the amount which he is to receive as a security against his striking.

2.   Mr. Brennan desired to fix the terms for ultimate purchase; we declined to do so, as we had not sufficient information to enable us to estimate the value of the invention.

3.   It is for you to decide whether the agreement should be referred to the Law Officers.  Such a reference would involve delay, and Mr. Brennan is – not without reason – losing patience; he has been kept waiting for a definite answer to his proposals for more than eight months.

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2013, 22:27:56 »
The Treasury replied 9th August 1882, as follows:-

Treasury to War Office.

In reply to Sir Arthur Hayter’s letter of the 8th instant, I am directed by my Lords to inform you that they approve of the terms on which the Secretary of State proposes to secure the use of the Brennan and Temperley torpedo – namely, the immediate payment of 5,000l., and the employment of Mr. Brennan for three years certain, at the rate of 1,000l. per annum, in order to secure the development of the invention; the question of the purchase being left for further consideration.

2.   My Lords give their approval, subject to the following observations:-

3.   The interest of Mr. Brennan and his partner in the ultimate sale of his invention to the Government, is not identical with that of the Government in Mr. Brennan’s employment during the three years.  It is his interest, so long as the sale is uncertain, not to afford all the information he may be acquiring.  My Lords do not understand whether he is to be employed in the Royal Laboratory and subject to official inspection.

4.   Supposing that there is no ultimate purchase of the invention by the Government, there should be the most express renunciation on the part of Messrs. Brennan and Temperley of a lllegal rights of patentees against the Government, either under the existing law or any change of it.

5.   Considering the importance of the engagement, my Lords are of opinion that the terms of it should be expressed in the memorandum of agreement prepared in communication with the Solicitor of the Treasury, and settled by the Law Officers.

6.   My Lords notice the statement as to a further proposal for meeting the expense.

Negotiations ensued, and a draft agreement was prepared of the provisions of which the following is a brief summary:-

The Secretary of state to pay to Messrs. Brennan and Temperley the sum of 5,000l. as compensation for expenses in coming to England, &c., and up to date; such payment to be paid on the date of execution of agreement.

1.   Mr. Brennan thereupon to be employed by War Department for three years in improving and perfecting invention. &c.

2.   Should Mr. Brennan give notice during the above period that the improved torpedo is complete, and fit for trial; then his employment to cease at the expiration of two calendar months, if that be within the three years.

3.   Mr. Brennan to receive, while employed, 1,000l. per annum.

4.   Full means and facilities to be afforded to Mr. Brennan, and expenses of construction and trial to be borne by War Department.

5.   Mr. Brennan to reside in London, but to travel as directed, and observe other directions as to his employment.

6.   Mr. Brennan’s whole time to be devoted to War Department.

7.   No secret information relating to the torpedo to be at any time divulged by Messrs. Brennan and Temperley, or any representative or agent, without Secretary of State’s sanction.

8.   No patent relating to the torpedo to be taken out anywhere during Mr. Brennan’s employment, nor any license of assignment to be made to any person other than the Secretary of State.

9.   If, during the three years, Mr. Brennan shall give notice that the torpedo is complete and fir for trial, then, within two months after such notice, or, if the three years, the Secretary of State shall have the option of purchasing the invention and exclusive use of the torpedo, with all improvements and information, on terms to be then agreed upon; if such purchase be made, the improved torpedo and all its appurtenances to be the property of the Secretary of State.

10.   If such purchase be not carried out, the improved torpedo and its appurtenances, or such parts thereof as they may desire, to be the property of the Torpedo Company, on payment of cost of the construction thereof; but the sum of 5,000l. referred to above, and any sums paid to Mr. Brennan as salary, not to be included in cost.

11.   Until such purchase shall have been made, Messrs. Brennan and Temperley not to be required to divulge any secret connected with the torpedo, except on strict confidence to not more than three persons named by the Secretary of state, for the purpose of estimating the value of the invention.  Such information not to be used in anyway, save as hereinafter mentioned, unless the invention is purchased.

12.   If before the expiration of the three years, or earlier determination of Mr. Brennan’s employment, he shall neglect, or refuse, or cease to serve the War Department, except on account of temporary illness; or of there should be any breach of the agreement on the part of the Torpedo Company, or of Messrs. Brennan, Temperley, or Calvert, then any information such as mentioned in Article 11 shall become the property of the Secretary of State, and may be made use of by him.

13.   Nothing in the Agreement to affect the right of the Crown of its Officers to use patents without payment or compensation.

(The Agreement in full is appended to this paper.  Appendix 1., page 30.)

The Draft Agreement was submitted to the Treasury by their Solicitor, and, on 25th January 1883, they addressed the following letter to this department:-

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2013, 13:01:10 »
The Committee reported as follows, 1st September 1882:-

The foregoing memorandum clearly states the circumstances of this case.

We have no doubt of the value of this torpedo invention.  We are less confident that the secret on which its efficient working depends can be kept from foreign Governments for any length of time.  If we bought the monopoly we should, probably, only retain it for a few years at the most.

Under these circumstances, the terms demanded by the inventor appear to us, considering that there is much yet to be done to perfect the invention in its practical application, in excess of what should not in reason be entertained.

We think, however, that the invention is sufficiently valuable to justify us in recommending that an arrangement should be proposed to him on the basis of the terms granted to Major Moncrieff.

Mr. Brennan having been invited by the Government to come to this country from Australia, has been since working out his invention in the Government workshops for more than a year, and has imparted valuable information to the Inspector-General of Fortifications and the Royal Engineer Committee.  He is not possessed of funds to enable him to pursue his experiments, and has already expended a considerable sum in carrying them on.

We suggest, therefore, that 5,000l. be granted to him for services already rendered, and that he should be taken into the Government service for three years certain, at a salary of 1,000l. a-year, on the condition that we are at liberty to use and apply this information, and that he will, as long as he is so employed, keep the secret from other governments.

When the torpedo has been perfected and subjected to more full trials, the matter should be again considered, with a view of determining whether we should purchase its exclusive use, or should allow it to go into the open market.

The Secretary of State (Mr. Childers) approved for recommendation to the Treasury, 3rd August 1882, and a letter was written accordingly, 8th August 1882.

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2013, 09:43:15 »
A Committee, consisting of Lord Morley, Under Secretary of State; Sir J. Adye, Surveyor-General of the Ordnance; Sir F. A. Campbell, Director of Artillery and Stores; Sir Andrew Clarke, Inspector-General of Fortifications, assembled at the War Office, 1st August 1882, to consider the general subject.

The following memorandum, prepared in Director of Artillery’s Department, was submitted to them:-

1.   The inventors, from Australia, have been for some time in England and in communication with this department, and as a certain amount of encouragement has been given to them, and experimental trials made at Chatham, there can be no doubt that they have incurred considerable expense.

2.   The invention is patented in this country, but it is stated in their letter of 12th July 1882, and the statement is apparently confirmed by the Inspector-General of Fortifications, that “the successful application of the principle to torpedoes depends upon devices which we have kept secret, and which are the results of years of practical experiment.”

3.   They complain of the publication in the press of certain details which impel them to ask for an immediate decision as to the intentions of Her Majesty’s Government.

4.   Their proposals are as follows:-

(a.)   To sell the invention to the British Government; to undertake to use every precaution to secure to them solely and exclusively all the advantages arising from its possession, and to give them the sole and exclusive advantage of Mr. Brennan’s great knowledge of the weapon for 100,000l.
(b.)   Or, to sell the invention to the British Government for 25,000l. and a royalty on the manufacture of the torpedoes covering the remaining 75,000l.
(c.)   Or, to sell to the British Government the right to make and use the torpedo in Great Britain and her dependencies along, for 30,000l., reserving the right to manufacture for other countries.

5.   Inspector-General of Fortifications advises (a), and says (b) is indefinite, and (c) inadmissible.

He says that the results obtained at Chatham would enable the inventors to obtain elsewhere, at least , double the amount now asked.

Further, that not only for land but also for sea service, the invention would be most valuable.

Also, that Mr. Brennan being a trained and accomplished engineer, it would be desirable to secure his services.

If the British Government intend to take up the invention, an advance of 5,000l. on account is desired and recommended.

In reference to the foregoing I would submit as follows:-

(1.)   If Messrs. Brennan and Temperley have furnished secret information not derivable from their published specification, which can be used and applied, they ought to be remunerated, and 5,000l. would not appear to be an extravagant sum, on the understanding that we shall be at liberty to use and apply our knowledge.

NOTE. – 15,000l. was paid to Mr. Whitehead for a full communication of his secret, and he was left free to make his torpedoes for other Powers.

(2.)   If the invention is so important and so secret as to warrant special terms with the inventors; and if, moreover, it is possible to preserve secrecy notwithstanding manufacture in Royal Laboratory, the patent might by assigned to the Government, and the services of the patentees, or patentee, secured by a payment down of, say 20,000l., and a salary, say for three or five years certain, as in the case of Major Moncrieff who received a salary of 1,000l. per annum.

(3.)   The Secretary of State has observed that the question involved is “very serious,” alluding, I imagine, to the expense, and I would respectfully observe that we must satisfy the Treasury of the advantages to be gained to induce them to agree to such large payments even as those already mentioned.

(4.)   The payment of such a sum as 100,000l. would assuredly involve a special vote of Parliament.

(5.)   The crucial question seems to be, is there a really valuable secret?  If we buy it, can we keep it secret; can we ensure its being known only to ourselves and the inventor; and, finally, supposing other questions to be answered affirmatively, what is the secret worth?

Lewis W. Engelbach.

27th July 1882.

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2013, 12:54:46 »
The following minute was submitted to the Surveyor-General by Inspector-General of Fortifications, 17th July 1882.

Herewith are two letters referring to the Brennan torpedo, and which should be read together: one submitting alternative proposals of terms for the use of this engine of warfare, the other drawing attention to an article in the Standard news-paper of July 12th.

In this article, the leading features of the torpedo are described with more or less of accuracy, details which have not hitherto been disclosed to the public, and which could only have transpired through the agency of the owner, or by (to use the mildest language) a very grave indiscretion on the part of some public servant, who may have taken part in the trials or had access to the papers.  This must be made the subject of a searching enquiry, so little need be said in reference to it here, other than to observe that this premature disclosure rather forces an early and final decision on the merits of the invention itself; and, anticipating its adoption as a national weapon of defence, the terms of reward or remuneration of the inventor or patent holders must be considered.

Messrs. Brennan and Tempreley have made three proposals in their letter of 12th instant herewith.  Of these three, I must advise a favourable consideration of No.1.  The second proposition is indefinite, and would be certain to give rise eventually to complications and disputes, the third inadmissible.

If it is determined to permit the use of this invention to other countries, the simplest plan will be to contract – as for the use of other articles – with the inventors or manufacturers, for the supply from time to time of the quantities we may require, free from any permanent engagement or undertaking on either side.

I am strongly of opinion that the adoption of the first proposal, or some modification of it, would be on the whole the wisest policy.  No doubt the sum demanded seems large, but of this I am certain that if it were decided that this country would not endeavour to secure for itself (a far as possible) the exclusive use of the invention, and the inventor asked to be furnished with the results of his experiments conducted in the presence of our Officers, - and I do not know on what grounds the request could be refused, - if he were to take these results into the market, he would have no difficulty in selling his invention for at least double the amount now asked.

It may be urged that the very fact of having to go to Parliament, to sanction so large a reward, would (if nothing else did) at once direct attention to the nature of the invention, with the result that it would be immediately reproduced elsewhere: possible so, but though the principle of the invention has been for some time in reality public property, it has taken the inventor many years of study and practice to bring it to its present condition of practical applicability.  And, though other nations may eventually learn to make it, the price asked is not more than the advantage of the start may be worth to us.

As an engine of ocean warfare I will not say much, but I have every confidence that in this respect it will have great success; it can be launched and directed with unerring certainty from a ship when under weigh, travelling at high speed, and has a range far in excess of any other known weapon of the kind.

For the defence of tidal waters, or even open roadsteads, it must be a most effective agent.

The machine is less costly than other known locomotive torpedo.  On shipboard it needs no special power provided, for giving it motion; the application of the ordinary steam power of the ship will suffice.  On shore also, when not needed for the torpedo, the power can be applied to other uses.

The inventor, Mr. Brennan, is a trained and accomplished mechanical engineer, of very exceptional talent and constructive power.  He combines with this, great modesty, and, I feel assured, high sense of duty and personal honour, lading me to believe that it would be, on all grounds, most desirable to secure him permanently for the service of the Queen.  Whether this may be done by engaging him in a civil capacity, or, as he is still very young, by giving him a commission in the Army (Royal Engineers) – a course I do not hesitate to advise – where we are pressed to obtain Officers with mechanical experience, may remain a matter for further consideration.

Offline Signals99

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2013, 00:16:01 »
Hi all, as mentioned previously on the forum I worked as a junior store house assistant at RNAD Lodge Hill. One of my last jobs prior to closure and my being transferred to the yard, was assisting a clerical officer in documenting the exhibits in Upnor Castle museum.
Among those was a Whithead torpedo, also a Brennan Torpedo, a very different shape and size to the then current Mk eight torpedo. I can't recall a lot about it, only that it had a small 'mast' or rod  sticking out of it on top and some wires at the prop end. I think both of them were taken of charge and sold as scrap.
All the weapons, cutlasses, pistols etc. went to the Tower armouries, powder kegs and shot went to RNAD Pridys Hard.
 It was a very long time ago and memories dim with age. I have tried to give just the salient facts, don't think I've let my imagination run riot, but if anything is subsequently found to be wrong, sorry.

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2013, 16:25:47 »
In my report, as President of the Royal Engineer Committee, I advised that the new torpedo should be made by Mr. Brennan and not in the Arsenals, but Mr. Brennan hesitates about putting himself and his invention in the hands of a private firm, and in this, I think, he is wise.  He would therefore prefer, if he can get the torpedo shell itself fashioned at the Arsenal, he preparing the drawings and moulds, working out the details and erecting the new weapon in the workshop attached to the School in Chatham, and working with detailed royal Engineer artificers.  He paying them, as well as for the materials and use of plants, &c., which he could well do with the funds advanced on account, but not for the steam power used subsequently to drive the torpedo.  This we may again get form the Admiralty.

On 12th July 1882, Messrs. Brennan and Temperley wrote the two following letters to the Inspector-General of fortifications:-

“We have the honour to draw your attention to the attached article which appears in this morning’s issue of the standard.  We have not the slightest knowledge as to how the information was obtained, but the article itself contains indubitable internal evidence that the information has been supplied by some one having access to the papers connected with our business, and now in the possession of the War Office.

We attach no importance to the description contained in the article, because it is merely an outline of the principle necessarily disclosed in our patent, whilst the successful application of the principle to torpedoes depends upon devices which we have kept secret, and which are the result of years of practical experiment.  Nevertheless the fact of general attention having been directed to the existence of the weapon, has forced upon our consideration the necessity of urging the Government to an immediate decision as to what steps they intend to take with reference to its adoption.”



“Since naming to you informally the price we are prepared to accept from the British Government for this invention, it has occurred to us to place the matter before you in the three following alternative forms:-

1.   As originally verbally stated to you, we are prepared to sell the invention to the British Government, to undertake to use every endeavour and take every precaution to secure to the British Government solely and exclusively all the advantages arising from its possession, and to give them the sole and exclusive advantage of Mr. Brennan’s great knowledge and experience of the weapon for 100,000l.

2.   We are prepared to sell the invention to the British Government on the above conditions for 25,000l., and a royalty on the manufacture of the torpedoes covering the remaining 75,000l. with interest.

3.   We are prepared to sell to the British Government the right to make and use the torpedoes in Great Britain and her dependencies along for 30,000l., reserving to ourselves the right to manufacture for other countries.

Without wishing to unduly urge the Government to a decision, we are very anxious that out business should receive immediate attention, and we hope that we may soon be informed what steps the Government are prepared to take in the matter, as time is of the most vital consequence to use, and we are not in a position to remain inactive for any lengthened period.”


Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2013, 14:44:04 »
THE BRENNAN TORPEDO>

1881 – 1887.

War Office March 1887.



THE BRENNAN TORPEDO.

This invention was first brought to the notice of the War Department by Messrs. Brennan and Temperley (of Victoria, Australia), in May 1881.  They had been for some time in communication with the Admiralty with regard to it, but had been informed that that department was not prepared to incur the expense of trials.  Messrs. Brennan and Temperley then submitted it for adoption by the War Department.

The circular for inventors was sent to them 9th May 1881, and the Admiralty were requested to furnish copies of reports made by naval authorities in Victoria and at home, on the torpedo in question.

The Admiralty in reply, 24th May 1881, sent certain reports, and notified that they had agreed to a proposal of Messrs. Brennan and Temperley, that the torpedo should be inspected confidentially by Officers nominated by their Lordships.

Lieut.-Colonal Lyon, R.A., Superintendent Royal Laboratory, was associated with the Officers named by the admiralty, and they inspected the torpedo on 23rd June 1881.

The admiralty forwarded, 26th July 1881, the official report of the Officers above referred to, and stated that their Lordships did not think that the torpedo would be found suitable for use on board Her Majesty’s ships, but that further trial of it might possibly be desirable for use from forts.

By the Secretary of sTate’s direction, the matter was referred to Inspector-General of Fortifications, 3rd August 1881.

Meantime, however, the Royal engineer Committee had drawn Inspector-General of Fortification’s attention to the invention; and on the 8th August 1881 they were instructed by Inspector-General of Fortifications to communicate with Messrs. Brennan and Temperley, and report what experiments they recommended.

The Committee reported 24th August 1881, and in accordance with their recommendations arrangements were made with the Admiralty for assistance being afforded in carrying out preliminary experiments, which were ordered to be proceeded with 9th September 1881.

The royal Engineer Committee reported fully on experiments which they had carried out 30th May 1882.

They recognised the great merit of the invention, and strongly recommended that an improved pattern of the torpedo should be made at the expense of the Government, and that a series of further trials should be instituted.

A discussion then ensued as to the exact steps to be taken, in the course of which the Inspector-General of Fortifications (Sir Andrew Clarke), in a minute dated 30th June 1882, observed as follows:-

No formal or indeed, as far as I know, informal agreements have been entered into or even discussed as to remuneration or reward to be given to the inventor should be principle of his invention be adopted.  I have, however, ascertained that if this weapon fulfils, when perfected, all that is author contemplates, and that if it becomes the exclusive property of the English government, he expects to receive something not far short of 100,000l.  I have also, ut informally, ascertained from him, that, pending this final adoption, he would be glad to have an advance made to him of 5,000l.

This, however, will have to be made the subject of formal agreements under satisfactory guarantees provided by the inventor.

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2009, 20:45:42 »
 :)

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2009, 19:15:08 »
 :)

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2009, 19:11:13 »
 :)

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2009, 12:09:14 »
The engine room was installed for the torpedos and i think it is still remaining.

I don't really understand where these plans are or what they show  ??? :-[

This last one is obviously a cross section of the fort itself

david

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2009, 09:02:04 »
The casemates were full of old chains and bits of junk when I visited in 1993. Very little in the way of fittings remained. The upper floor casemates had the passenger tunnel running through them, which prevented any access to the walls of the caseemates. There was nothing to suggest that any Brennan installation equipment was ever there.





/>










(spelling mistakes corrected!)

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2009, 16:31:19 »
 :)

Offline kyn

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Re: Brennan Torpedo
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2009, 13:13:07 »
They do, they are the casemates of the fort.  Unfortunately the casemates are all locked so i have been unable to see if anything remains inside, although it is unlikely as the torpedoes were launched from outside of the fort.  These plans are just previous proposals.

 

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